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Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

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Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#191

Post by david38 »

pintxo wrote: post #171
credit_guy wrote: post #154

I read Mearsheimer's "Tragedy of Great Power Politics", and I think it's one of the most important books ever written. It completely changed the way I think about what's going on in the world. That being said, I think on the topic of Russia and Ukraine, Mearsheimer is not consistent with his own theory (defensive realism). I completely understand why Putin is doing what he's doing, his actions are very well explained…

> But to say that what Russia is doing is somehow US's fault, that really does not make any sense. My take on it is: if you willingly push a bear in a tight corner, you have it coming when he starts biting and fighting. Now, this is no valid excuse for me when it comes to nation states and their actions, but nations are just run by humans, aren't they?

Invading Russia would be pushing the bear into a tight corner.

This is setting up camp in another ecosystem where the bear isn’t supposed to be at all, has no claim.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#192

Post by mindslight »

warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

I'm no fan of the USian empire, but there is a categorical difference between playing the propaganda / political puppet game to affect a democratic process, and open war against another sovereign country because you don't like the result.

All this talk of Russia getting upset that "its" sphere of influence would rather look westward is completely writing off the agency of individual countries that haven't been part of the USSR for over a generation. There are very good reasons why Ukraine et al look West instead of East - chiefly riches and individual freedoms. Russia could have riches, but instead suffers from the resource curse. Russia could have liberalized, but instead continued to rely on (and is now even tightening up) uniparty-based censorship.

Say what you will about the failings and pathologies of Western liberalism. In fact, it's your patriotic duty to do so! But never take it for granted.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#193

Post by avasylev »

Grustaf wrote: post #181
avasylev wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm well aware of political situation in Ukraine. I took part in the protests of 2004 that led to "US-backed putsch", had nothing to do with USA. You're stripping Ukrainian people of any agency. Not everything is secretly manipulated by USA or Russia, people of the country are not mindless bots.

This time it wasn't very secret though, they were quite open about it.

why would USA be secret about supporting Ukraine? USA was one of the countries guaranteeing Ukraine's safety in exchange for nuclear weapons release. I would argue USA is not doing enough for what they signed up for.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#194

Post by teachrdan »

Grustaf wrote: post #177
BitwiseFool wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also surprised at just how many of my friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types who think that anyone who believes that even a modicum of this is perhaps America's fault is committing treason. For what it's worth, what Russia is doing is wrong. But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0…

The propaganda onslaught is unparalleled. Ukraine is painted as heaven on Earth, a beacon of democracy. McFaul even suggested that Putin essentially "hated Ukraine because it was free". In reality Ukraine is even more corrupt than Russia, their economy is in terrible shape, despite having more natural resources than most, and a diligent educated population. GDP per capita is a third of Russia's, lower than Belarus! T…

Does Ukraine kill journalists who criticize their government? Does it send assassins who murder political dissidents abroad with polonium? Do they imprison and torture people for being queer?

It seems your argument that Ukraine is corrupt and poor creates a false equivalence with Russia. It seems to me that Russia under Putin is far, far worse.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#195

Post by chucklenorris »

wahern wrote: post #86
thraneh wrote: post #4

A lot of current news feels very biased, even from sources I previously found unbiased. Fortunately I was recently shared a link to John Mearsheimers 2015 YT video where he very clearly explains what has led to the current situation. In that light I now feel it's a lot easier to filter the news.

> A lot of current news feels very biased, even from sources I previously found unbiased. I wholeheartedly agree. I feel like I could write an entire book of what it reveals about the state of Western culture. But when something is so obnoxious I try to remind myself to be especially careful about how I react. Because one of the other obnoxious things about contemporary Western culture is how partisan political senti…

The reasons for Russia's hyperagression are simple and stated by Putin himself - he sees it as reacting to an existential threat. Right now US can't do a preemptive nuclear strike without retaliation. If military bases pop up in Ukraine the russians will have no chance to react. And US knows it and has been actively involved in Ukraine's affairs for a decade and now Ukrainians are paying the price. Putin will "watch the world burn" before it sees Ukr fall into US sfere of influence. And the worst part is that Putin can't win. Ukrainians are already against Russia the same as afghani people hate the US liberators. Putin's country and army will get increasingly depleted until there will be no other options left on the table. If this war takes more than six months we're going to see some beautiful mushroom clouds. P.S. I don't think the cockroaches are going to care who's to blame for the anihilation of our species.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#196

Post by Grustaf »

inglor_cz wrote: post #187
Grustaf wrote: post #186

Instinctively it makes sense that Putin doesn't want NATO on his doorsteps, but at the same time, why not? He already has NATO in the Baltics, and it's not like NATO would try to invade Russia just because they are neighbours. They are showing now very clearly that they are not interested in a conflict with Russia. Sure I understand it's not black and white, but NATO is already the stronger party, by far, so what doe…

I don't believe this is about NATO. What Putin does not want is Ukraine as a democratic state where a president loses an election and steps down peacefully. Ukraine is "small Russia" and Russians could start asking questions.

That's exactly what McFaul suggested, and it's frankly absurd. Putin is quite popular, even my modern, non-Putinist friends in Moscow think he would win a fair election. Besides, he never lost an election, it's not that he lost and stayed on, that's not the issue.

And every one already knows that there are democratic countries, it's not like Russians would suddenly stage a coup because Ukraine has a fair election. Which they won't have any time soon, by the way. Ukraine is more corrupt than Russia.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#197

Post by polski-g »

mantas wrote: post #6

As a Lithuanian... All the „It's the West fault“ crowd is missing the elephant in the room. What is the alternative if West did what Russia want? De-facto Iron curtain still up with tens of millions of people living under authoritarian regimes similar to Belarus and, well, Russia. Yes, it's completely „West fault“ since they could have left us for Russia to eat for lunch. More „West faults“ please.

Ukraine stays neutral and doesn't join Russia nor NATO?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#198

Post by Grustaf »

foogazi wrote: post #188
Grustaf wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on.

> The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on Is that why they keep fighting? OTOH The east is clearly bombing Ukraine

They're fighting because they are being attacked, and because Slavs are courageous and stubborn. But the West are not telling them to give up, to save civilian lives. Instead they encourage them to keep fighting, delaying the inevitable. I don't know by how many days that will prolong the war, but it's reckless.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#199

Post by warner_of_doom »

331c8c71 wrote: post #135
murat124 wrote: post #65

Ukraine crisis has a long history, we're only witnessing and recalling the last 40 years or so. Putin views Ukraine as a country which should not exist at all. This is a position that Stalin took almost a century ago before causing 5 millions Ukrainians to die from starvation. We have to understand this: West can not make Russia to change this view. With our without the support of West, whether Ukrainians want to joi…

> This is a position that Stalin took almost a century ago before causing 5 millions Ukrainians to die from starvation. The deliberate ethnic genocide is not universally accepted. The famine affected large areas of the USSR besides Ukraine.

Not to mention that Stalin was a Georgian, not a Russian.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#200

Post by dictum »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #156
warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

I'm also surprised at just how many of my friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types who think that anyone who believes that even a modicum of this is perhaps America's fault is committing treason. For what it's worth, what Russia is doing is wrong. But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0…

> friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

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