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Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

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Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#191

Post by jug »

cute_boi wrote: post #25
_ph_ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas is one of the few large sources of income in Russia. Reducing the gas trade is one of the few really direct sanctions possible. Even if it comes at a price, it is way better than to start shooting.

This is a reason sanctions don't work as people expect. China will simply buy those valuable gas. I do acknowledge that there would be transportation costs. In the end, Europe will suffer more and China will be happier. And, currently, with the price hike on gas, I think the EU will face more problems. Geopolitics is not a game of morality, rather it's a game of logic. China, the US, and Russia seem to be playing ver…

China will buy gas but they aren't overpaying and have the leverage to not need to overpay to Russia.

Russia needs China more than China needs Russia.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#192

Post by jseliger »

vanilla-almond wrote: post #54

A related report from the BBC (published a few days ago): Europe gas prices: How far is Russia responsible? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/58888451 Some key points in the BBC article: - Russia supplies about 40% of the EU’s natural gas imports. Most of the rest comes from Norway and Algeria. - Russia sends gas to Europe through several main pipelines - such as the Nord Stream, the Yamal-Europe and the Brotherhood (see th…

Europe gas prices: How far is Russia responsible?

Another way of framing this is "Europe gas prices: How far is Europe responsible?" https://www.bloombergquint.com/gadfly/what-the-u-s-can-learn... | https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/01/bi...

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#193

Post by markvdb »

dboreham wrote: post #99
bungle wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First of all, a lot of gas gets used for heating - nuclear isn't useful there All electricity basically turns to heat at some point. So why not?

You can't use electricity to run your gas furnace.

Green hydrogen derivatives would make that theoretically possible. This is receiving quite a lot of attention in the EU at the moment. In practice, the stress is more on industrial processes and other primary energy use scenarios.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#194

Post by michaelt »

hannasanarion wrote: post #150
fsh wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You lose something like 70% of the thermal output of the reactor in the conversion to electricity. Also the capacities a nowhere near large enough. Nord Stream 2 alone can transport something like 63 GW worth of gas. This is more than the total electricity consumption of Germany.

And for a home heater, 80% of the heat from the gas you burn goes up the chimney. Larger energy capture devices can be more efficient. One highly-efficient fuel burning plant providing power to a hundred thousand electric resistive heaters can produce more useful heat per unit fuel than a hundred thousand small-scale self-maintained home furnaces.

You're both wrong.

Combined cycle power plants can be 64% efficient [1] at turning heat into electricity. And if that power goes on to run a heat pump, 1 watt of electric power can deliver 3-4 watts of heating.

And modern gas combi boilers can be 92-98% efficient [2].

The days of people throwing away 80% of the energy they pay for are long gone.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant [2] https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/boilers/article/boiler-energ...

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#195

Post by trasz »

Loic wrote: post #53

My personal opinion: All this Ukraine stuff is also supported by China. I bet they are ready to buy Russian oil and gas to compensate even if this costs them more than getting them from the open market. Why? Because this is a wonderful test drive to check how the West (sorry for the approximation) is reacting to a country theoretically supported by the West being invaded by another one. For me, the next one on the li…

Except it isn't supported by China: https://www.wsj.com/articles/behind-chinas-warning-against-a...

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#196

Post by PinguTS »

foepys wrote: post #122
mlatu wrote: post #80

> The decision comes as Europeans grapple with record-high power bills, driven in large part by a gas supply shortage. an artificial shortage made by private investors. the russians are selling the gas as per contract, but because it is cheaper than what you can get on the spot market, some idiots are making a quick buck by selling the cheap gas for the spot market price. well, something like that https://blog.fefe.d…

Be aware that Fefe is very pro Russia and repeatedly stated that he thinks that Russia is defending itself against Western aggression. He also made fun of multiple people who said that Russia would invade.

Sonneborn ran also an article on this topic that currently the Gas is pumped from Germany back to Poland because Poland is buying on the spot market.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#197

Post by mytailorisrich »

nindalf wrote: post #184
mytailorisrich wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue between China (both PRC and Taiwan since they have the same claims) and the Philippines and Vietnam is with the South China Sea, namely the so-called "nine dash line" that includes areas also claimed by Vietnam and the Philippines. Interestingly, the Philippines were previously invaded and occupied by Spain, the US, and Japan but never China although one of their nearest neighbour... Likewise although there…

I notice you carefully avoided mention of Korea. Were you hoping no one caught that China has dominated Korea for centuries? Or that there were failed attempts to conquer Japan? Incompetence doesn’t equal a peacenik attitude.

I did not avoid anything. Korea is nearer China's "centre of gravity" and has obviously had very close interactions and was indeed a vassal state of China at some point following invasion by the Mongols. But China did not really invade it the way Japan did and it does not detract to my point.

It's FUD to claim that China plans to invade its neighbours. Having a growing influence, sure, but it's quite different and they have along way to go before they can get even halfway to the level of control and influence the US have over many countries, for instance.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#198

Post by HotHotLava »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #163
fsh wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is literally the opposite of what the minister has said: https://www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Meldung/20220101-eu-taxonom... Please don't spread misinformation.

Are you going to pretend that Germany didn't lobby for natural gas to be included by Europe in the green taxonomy ? Adding "but we know it's bad!" after the fact doesn't make it better in the slightest. German greens are hypocrites.

The relevant part of the statement, per the official source linked above:

> Minister Habeck said: "The idea of including fossil gas in the taxonomy system is also questionable. The European Commission does at least make it clear that gas from fossil fuels is only a bridging technology which needs to be substituted by green hydrogen. New gas-fired power plants must already be equipped for conversion to hydrogen, and from 2035 they must be operated on the basis of green hydrogen or low-carbon gas. This is ambitious and will require large amounts of hydrogen. Incentivising sufficient investment in the transition towards hydrogen, establishing the necessary infrastructure and ramping up hydrogen production are some of the major challenges we are currently facing."

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#199

Post by ben_bai »

chess_buster wrote: post #140
Helmut10001 wrote: post #110

Germany has run on 60% Wind power alone in January and February so far, even exported energy to France (because their nuclear power is in bad shape) and Poland (coal power plants are just too expensive). Just another motivation to get rid of the old power sources as soon as possible. North Stream 2 never made sense.

This is correct in regard of electricity, yes.

And electricity is about 21% of the total energy consumed.

There is also heating 49% (which is basically all gas and oil)

And Mobility 30% (which is basically all oil)

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#200

Post by DeathArrow »

nabla9 wrote: post #167
vanilla-almond wrote: post #54

A related report from the BBC (published a few days ago): Europe gas prices: How far is Russia responsible? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/58888451 Some key points in the BBC article: - Russia supplies about 40% of the EU’s natural gas imports. Most of the rest comes from Norway and Algeria. - Russia sends gas to Europe through several main pipelines - such as the Nord Stream, the Yamal-Europe and the Brotherhood (see th…

EU is improved LNG capacity (LNG terminals and LNG regasification capacity) as a policy. LNG imports will take over Russian gas over medium term. After regasification the gas goes to same pipes. Biden has discussed with US energy companies on how to get them into providing LNG capacity to European needs.

Wouldn't LNG from US be much more expensive than gas from Russia? Why would European countries pay for it?
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