Live data from Hacker News

France to Build Six New Nuclear Reactors

politico.eu

191–200 of 450 posts

Re: France to Build Six New Nuclear Reactors

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the United States built nuclear plants at scale, in serial production, plant costs were also much lower. As far as I know, there was never a time where US nuclear power plants were built on time and at budget (and that's while building more than France ever did).

During the 1970s, plants were built at 1-2 billion per GW of capacity: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S03014215163001...

They were still over budget and late, but that chart (which was created to try to claim all the overhead can largely be explained by regulatory changes) strongly argues against

> When the United States built nuclear plants at scale, in serial production, plant costs were also much lower.

Re: France to Build Six New Nuclear Reactors

#192
post #115
post #71

Keep in mind that the presidential election is in 3 months. Macron wants to show he is being pragmatic. Nuclear energy allows to reduce carbon emissions without sacrificing the economy. It's particularly smart in this moment of tension with Russia, as Europe depends a lot on Russian energy. But whether this happens or not remains to be seen.

> It's particularly smart in this moment It may be particularly smart for this moment in internal French politics, but energy independence is a smart move for any sovereign.

Hinkley Point doesn't look so expensive now (Electricity forwards have been greater than the rate the reactor is supposed to cost since august)

Re: France to Build Six New Nuclear Reactors

#193
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Massive desert projects are just big subsidies to big corps. Few make money, at least one failed, others get bailouts. We could have all the same capacity cheaper, energy independence by putting more PVs on home roofs. The hippies are right, the corporate whores are wrong. https://www.newsdata.com/california_energy_markets/southwest...

We have high home-solar uptake here in Australia, but the problem on the whole is that you then have a grid needing to cater for peak load without having the regular income to make it financial. Makes for a bit of a death spiral. They need higher prices to cover grid costs, which drives more people to put on solar, and so on.

I’ve only thought about this for five seconds but that seems like a pricing structure issue rather than something inevitable.

Re: France to Build Six New Nuclear Reactors

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Environmentalists are blocking construction of more wind power Environmentalists really are their own worst enemies. When I was in high school near San Diego about 15 years ago, there was a huge amount of opposition to a solar power project. From environmentalists. There was a solar power plant out in Imperial County and the environmentalists were protesting the high voltage lines that would bring the power into San…

In this article, I don't see evidence for "environmentalists" being the ones block wind-power, sounds more like argument between levels of the French state [1]. But just as much, the mantle of environmentalist can be taken by anyone, notably just nimbys. There's not a copyright on the term. But it winds-up even worse when others point to these idiot uses of the term environmentalist and then try to push actually envi…

> the mantle of environmentalist can be taken by anyone, notably just nimbys

The mantle of NIMBY can be given to anyone, even environmentalists.

This seems very "no true scottsman" adjacent.

Re: France to Build Six New Nuclear Reactors

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the 1970s, plants were built at 1-2 billion per GW of capacity: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S03014215163001...

They were still over budget and late, but that chart (which was created to try to claim all the overhead can largely be explained by regulatory changes) strongly argues against > When the United States built nuclear plants at scale, in serial production, plant costs were also much lower.

See this cluster of power plants in the second half of the 1960 [1]? This is when lots of plants were built around the same time, leveraging economies of scale. All of those plants were built at less than $2 billion per gigawatt of capacity, most of them closer to $1B per GW. This is about an order of magnitude less than the one-off construction that's been done since then.

1. https://i.imgur.com/yKqGXyL.png

Re: France to Build Six New Nuclear Reactors

#196
post #79
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The position is coherent" is a devastatingly low bar for the table stakes or redefining society that radically.

I also don't think it's particularly coherent. Reversing economic development in many places might actually push populations back into less sustainable modes of managing/interacting with their local environments.

Or dying.

Re: France to Build Six New Nuclear Reactors

#197
post #192
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's particularly smart in this moment It may be particularly smart for this moment in internal French politics, but energy independence is a smart move for any sovereign.

Hinkley Point doesn't look so expensive now (Electricity forwards have been greater than the rate the reactor is supposed to cost since august)

Also keep in mind, a lot of the cost of Hinkley Point is not so much the cost to build the reactors, but the financing. Speaking from memory, we are talking about borrowing at something like 10% over 35 years.

If France finances these new power plants, financing cost goes virtually to zero. So even if actually building the new reactors cost the same (unlikely, I hope they learnt a thing or two over the last 10 years...) they will end up a lot cheaper than Hinkley Point.

Re: France to Build Six New Nuclear Reactors

#198
post #192
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's particularly smart in this moment It may be particularly smart for this moment in internal French politics, but energy independence is a smart move for any sovereign.

Hinkley Point doesn't look so expensive now (Electricity forwards have been greater than the rate the reactor is supposed to cost since august)

[deleted]

Re: France to Build Six New Nuclear Reactors

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear reactors have massive learning effects, the more you build with the same people and organization the cheaper it is. Nuclear own massive scale is its own worst enemy. If we could just build 500MW smaller Molten Salt cooled reactors we could literally build them like gas plants.

The source regarding actually seeing negative learning effects I linked in the original comment states in the abstract. > The French nuclear case illustrates the perils of the assumption of robust learning effects resulting in lowered costs over time in the scale-up of large-scale, complex new energy supply technologies. The uncertainties in anticipated learning effects of new technologies might be much larger that o…

What matter to me is that within one generation they totally de-carbonized the grid from oil and coal to nuclear and have successfully been in running it that way for decades.

Germany has been doing a Green New Deal style thing with Renwables for 2 decades now, in my opinion they could have easily been heading to 100% CO2 free by now if they had just started to build nuclear plants.

The French certainty made mistakes and unfortunately technology innovation and improvement and continued expatiation of the products on a global scale didn't happen.

Of course I don't want to relay on learning effects from these large complex projects, but its better then just extrapolating from individual first time builds.

We defiantly want to move to smaller AND more efficient nuclear plants, but for that we also need nuclear industry, nuclear education a competent nuclear regulator and a government that actually puts its resources in that place.

> The other issue is that for wind you only need an axle and a generator, for sun it is solid state. It is hard to compete with the economics of solid state power generation.

That is one consideration. The real question is all in, 100% making sure all citizens have as much power as they need at every moment no matter what happens. If you approach it like that, going a all nuclear route with some localized batteries for peak shaving would be the overall cheapest solution for a largish industrial economy. You just replace current coal plants with nuclear plants and use the same infrastructure.

Doing a fully renewable massive industrial economy is totally unsolved problem requiring storage, smart grids and so on. And even then, when you consider the loses of solar in the case of a vulcano for example, you probably need some kind of gas backup.

Had the world at Kyoto just said, lets everybody build 1 nuclear plant per 1 million people, we would have de-carbonized by now.

Post reply on HN