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An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

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Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#191

Post by notch656a »

mbesto wrote: post #176
notch656a wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew when I bought crypto it was being manipulated. I don't give a fuck, I use it as a medium of exchange usually dumping it within a few minutes of buying it in order to buy some goods online to avoid credit card fees (precious metals). It's true dollar is manipulated. It is true crypto is manipulated. It is true many people such as myself purely is it as a medium of exchange. Just like with dollars, I dump it as…

> In short, currencies are usually bad choice for store of value. > Also I recommend people not use crypto as investment, that is probably not smart idea to consider long chain of cryptographic signatures and hashes as a large portion of investment on your future. Re-read what you wrote there again for me. How do you pay for any goods or services if you: > dump it as quickly as possible to buy physical assets So, lik…

I pay for goods and services with USD. I get USD either by liquidating non-USD denominated asset for USD or from income-stream (wages). I didn't say I don't use USD, I said I hold it as short as possible just like with crypto.

>So, like cars that depreciate in value the second you buy them?

Generally worst example, although a few cars have held their value (some Porsche, but I'm not good enough car guy to execute this.)

>Like ones denominated in....US currency?

Like the ones not denominated in US currency, like stocks denominated in shares.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#192

Post by eric_cc »

alecst wrote: post #113
benreesman wrote: post #94

Eh 20-ish years ago the shit happening on Island and Archipelago would blow most people’s minds. Undocumented, conditional, non-displayed order types. Routine wash trading. Shear-but-don’t skin multi-venue arbitrage. The ECNs were the Wild West. Smoke-filled dark pools. Island and Arca are NASDAQ and NYSE now. But Ben, US equities have intrinsic value unlike this BTC garbage! Well unless they pay no dividend, have du…

A counterpoint would be that what some call the intrinsic value is the expected future share price based on expected future revenues. There might or might not be future revenue for SNAP, but there is no revenue for a digital currency. But I do think digital currency has intrinsic value, in that for now, it affords you anonymity to commit crimes in a way that ordinary currency does not. I’m not happy about it, but thi…

> it affords you anonymity

What? Bitcoin is radically transparent. The vast majority of crimes are committed with standard currencies like $USD. If 'crime' is the only value you see, you're extremely ignorant.

What is the bull case for $USD? What properties does it have that make it superior to currencies like $BTC in your opinion?

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#193

Post by coderintherye »

cillian64 wrote: post #137
dheera wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US equities have intrinsic value Really? My impression is that many US equities in 2022 are more like Reddit up/downvote scores than a reflection of intrinsic value. Which isn't a bad thing in my opinion, by the way.

I think of it like this. If you suddenly owned 100% of Bitcoin, then you wouldn’t actually have anything valuable - nobody would buy it off you. If you suddenly owned 100% of Tesla then you’d be able to extract a lot of value.

Sorry, but that's provably false, just look at all the Bitcoin knockoffs that forked off the main chain and the amount of money people put into them.

If someone managed to somehow own 100% of Bitcoin, it would make it worth much less, but it would not make it without value.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#194

Post by skrebbel »

ravar wrote: post #180
ckastner wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. I'm just saying that the other process is much, much worse than that.

thats like, your opinion bro. In all seriousness I am ok with crypto punishing gamblers, eventually people will learn to stay away from it, or be forced to stay away from it because they have nothing left to gamble. I don't see how this is more morally repugnant than casinos which are legally accessible in most of the US.

Yeah and after all, the world's poker chip factories consume the same amount of energy as Argentina so it's an apt comparison.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#195

Post by foxhill »

benreesman wrote: post #147
cillian64 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of it like this. If you suddenly owned 100% of Bitcoin, then you wouldn’t actually have anything valuable - nobody would buy it off you. If you suddenly owned 100% of Tesla then you’d be able to extract a lot of value.

I’ll start the bidding at 1 USD to own all BTC. Anyone want to go higher?

hmm. it might be a bit more subtle than that - if you were to own all 21 million bitcoin (i.e, nothing can be mined or otherwise created), it’d pose an existential crisis for the currency. miners would have no reason to mine, transactions on the small scale couldn’t happen, etc.

at the very least i expect other coins would pop up with a different genesis block. or maybe some form of hard fork (again, i might add).

owning them all might be problematic. 99% might not be.

that said, i don’t think it can be done for >100 years yet..

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#196

Post by eric_cc »

yokoprime wrote: post #187
notch656a wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad to see people genuinely wanting to watch others lose wealth so they can relish in it.

Trying to spot the biggest fool is quite entertaining

What if the biggest fool is you? That would be quite the karma.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#197

Post by selectodude »

kaashif wrote: post #152
benreesman wrote: post #94

Eh 20-ish years ago the shit happening on Island and Archipelago would blow most people’s minds. Undocumented, conditional, non-displayed order types. Routine wash trading. Shear-but-don’t skin multi-venue arbitrage. The ECNs were the Wild West. Smoke-filled dark pools. Island and Arca are NASDAQ and NYSE now. But Ben, US equities have intrinsic value unlike this BTC garbage! Well unless they pay no dividend, have du…

> Well unless they pay no dividend, have dual-class share structure, and IPO without a profitable quarter. What’s a share of SNAP entitle you to exactly? Ah right, you think someone will buy it for more. I think the idea would be like what happened to Apple: they eventually grew so much, became so successful, accumulated huge piles of cash bigger than they could possibly spend, that they had to start paying a dividen…

>I think the idea would be like what happened to Apple: they eventually grew so much, became so successful, accumulated huge piles of cash bigger than they could possibly spend, that they had to start paying a dividend.

Not a great example, Apple paid out a quarterly dividend from 1987 to 1995. They paid out a dividend in those years because they were cashflow positive and that was just the thing you did because the idea of "hypergrowth" wasn't a thing.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#198

Post by eric_cc »

mitchdoogle wrote: post #163
notch656a wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad to see people genuinely wanting to watch others lose wealth so they can relish in it.

It's always jealousy. People see someone they view as "undeserving" doing better than themselves and react with hatred.

This. A lot of comments in here spewing hatred toward crypto seem to come from a psychological defense mechanism. People were wrong and decided not to move to crypto and are now doubling down on that position to feel better about their poor choices.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#199

Post by sosuke »

mbesto wrote: post #9

Curious - does anyone not think Bitcoin or any other cypto coin is being manipulated?

I think that every and all markets are manipulated by groups with money and power. Everyone wants to game the system to act in their favor right? What would I want with more money? To earn more money of course.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#200

Post by eric_cc »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #183
mitchdoogle wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always jealousy. People see someone they view as "undeserving" doing better than themselves and react with hatred.

You're not wrong but there's plenty of contemptuous cryptobros who got wealthy via luck and won't admit it.

How exactly is it luck to recognize the value in crypto and buy a bunch? Because that's not exactly luck. That's recognizing value and managing risk successfully.

It's true that some people just FOMO into anything going up. But those types will end up losing all their "gains" in due time anyways.

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