More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years • Hacker News Board

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#191

Post by snambi » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

Knowledge and education should be free of cost and barriers. Any society that thinks otherwise, will not be able to sustain and expand knowledge in the long run.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#192

Post by lkxijlewlf » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #157

rootusrootus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relatively, yes, I believe so. But Oregon State still tells me to budget 30K/year for a resident undergrad. About half of that is living expenses, half is school.

I don't understand how we've accepted $30k/year as relatively affordable...

Well, your house's value went up 30% the past two years, so you can now take out a larger loan against it...

/sarcasm (in case it wasn't obvious).

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#193

Post by PragmaticPulp » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

> Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable.

Barely anyone pays full tuition.

Look up the statistics for any of the big colleges that share numbers. It’s usually less than 10% of students paying full tuition. Significant numbers of students pay under $10K and many pay basically nothing at all.

It’s still too expensive, but the myth that everybody is paying $50K/year at these colleges needs to die. It ends up convincing a lot of people who shouldn’t be paying that much that everyone else is doing it and therefore they should too.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#194

Post by wintermutestwin » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:26 PM UTC

My kids are going to college in an EU country where their BA degrees take three years, but each class is related to their major. In the US, our inane curriculum wastes two years retaking general ed classes that they should have learned in HS.

Borrowing to pay tuition to take general ED classes is dumb, and yet, this is the path that is pushed on our best and brightest.

At the least, kids should gen ed in Community College. At the best, we should reform or horrible curriculum.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#195

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:26 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #56

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

I've heard tales of people with interest rates of 7%+ on student loans, and the official rates are not incredibly low either: https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans/interest-r... Any loan that is charging 6.28% interest and also cant be discharged by bankruptcy is just usury with current interest rates.

An interest rate on something that is entirely uncollateralized and granted to someone with no income and often no credit history nor assets is usurious at a rate of around 2x that of an owner-occupied house with 20% down, an income of >3x the monthly payments, and a 740+ credit score? That is quite far from obvious to me.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#196

Post by zeppelin101 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:26 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #169

bagacrap wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

A lot of it is going to the administrative staff. They have massive departments, many buildings, and many unnecessary staff members with high salaries. Meanwhile, a lot of the teaching faculty is making a pittance.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#197

Post by ashtonkem » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:26 PM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #71

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

> given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments

That’s very true for mortgages, but in my experience this isn’t how student loans work. Nobody I knew before college had any idea what their loans would cost on a monthly basis once they went into repayment, and I don’t think it was disclosed to me (or I forgot).

Also unlike my mortgage, my loans have trivially changed repayment plans. I changed some of them several times based on my economic circumstances without refinancing, which makes nailing down a single payment kind of hard, even if the interest rate hasn’t changed.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#198

Post by xhkkffbf » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:26 PM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #148

samarama wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are student loans really such an issue? 85% of graduates have less than $50,000 in student loans. Paid off over 20 years, that’s really not much. https://www.rclco.com/wp-content/uploads/advisory-student-de... Additionally, those that have much higher loans are usually medical students who make $200,000/year at the entry level.

A $50,000 loan with a high interest rate is not good AT ALL.

Exactly. The fellow above is foolish to think that even $10k is manageable for people in entry level jobs. Even good coders have to strain to pay off $10k-20k.

Plus, you're right that the interest rate is insane when banks are paying 1%.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#199

Post by Dig1t » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

Doesn't it vary pretty wildly depending on the school?

I also was very concerned about cost when going college, so I went with the cheapest route possible and also worked a job during college. I went to community college for 2 years while living at my parent's house, which was very cheap, it cost about $1000 per year for that. Then I transferred to a cheaper in-state school, in my case it was one in the California State University system (CSU) which is way cheaper though not quite as well known as the UC system (UC Berkeley is part of that system), which cost me about 10k per year for the final 2 years.

In all I was able to get through college with no debt and a degree in Computer Science for a total cost of 22k. I think there is a mindset that students should always attend the best possible school that they are admitted to, but this seems pretty dumb to me as they are usually expensive for big brand names and in the end you receive the same degree and learn the same things.

What I did also happened in California, I think some states have even cheaper paths through college if you go with the community college + in-state university route.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#200

Post by valeness » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

ejb999 wrote: post #133

_fat_santa wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thought it's not as glamorous as a 4 year college experience, I highly suggest going to a Community College for the first two years and then transferring to a state school. I did this and through I resented it at the time, I existed college with around $30k in student debt versus my friends that all has something in range of ($40k to $80k). IMO 30k in student debt is very manageable, currently have the thing paid dow…

>>IMO 30k in student debt is very manageable, currently have the thing paid down to like $12k and I like knowing I can reach into savings at any time and wipe out this debt if need be. Absolutely - $30K in debt is completely reasonable imo; if after 4 years in college you have not improved your job prospects enough to cover that payment, then you probably didn't work very hard, or didn't pick a marketable major. Most…

Assuming 20k in debt is more than manageable for most people really says more about you than it does others who can't pay that back.

The OP said he could just "reach into savings" and whip out 12k. That is an INCREDIBLY privileged position to be in and I would urge you both to re-evaluate your perspective.

People taking care of their sick mother, or paying for expensive medication for chronic illnesses, or living in a poor job market area, or have poor credit due to narcissistic parents taking out loans in their name, battling mental illness, or are paying child support, etc; are not "edge cases". They make up a considerable number of people who are struggling with the compounded failures of the system layered over of them.

It was Margaret Mead who said something to the effect that "The earliest sign of true civilization, was that of a healed femur." This was said because a femur is not something that can be healed without assistance from someone else to bandage you, care for you, and fetch food for you.

What is the point of civilized society and public policy if not to ensure that "edge cases" are treated as equitably as the general public? Why do you not have the same mentality when somebody breaks a leg? Why should society care for the outcomes of poor decision making: for example, such as playing contact sports, that results in a broken leg?

Also please quit spewing the nonsense of "didn't choose a marketable major". I see this a lot with STEM grads, shitting on the arts, and then turning around and watching DUNE on HBOMax. Everybody enjoys the work of "non-marketable" majors, but nobody wants to pay for it.