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Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

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Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#191

Post by wavegeek »

alasdair_ wrote: post #174
fragmede wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pre-Godwinning the discussion doesn't raise discourse, it dumbs it down. Yes that's the history of the term but it was also the accepted term until after its removal from the DSM in 2013, and not everyone that grew up with that term is as plugged in as you and gotten the memo to moved over to the new term yet. It's fine to be angry at neurotypical people who use it as a slur, but you won't win many converts attacking…

It's not Godwinning something if the term is literally named after a Nazi and only came about directly as a result of a Nazi eugenics program.

> the term is literally named after a Nazi

Asperger was literally never a member of the Nazi party. So what you said it literally a lie.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#192

Post by fao_ »

wavegeek wrote: post #189
fao_ wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry... are you arguing for a term that separates autistic people into "productive" and "non productive" that was created by a literal Nazi? I am autistic, pretty much all of the people I know are autistic, and even most of the people I know through my workplace are autistic (it's explicitly a neurodiverse workplace), and I've pretty much never seen anyone need to use the term "aspergers" in general conversation. As…

> created by a literal Nazi This is a literal lie. See the wikipedia article for example. The fact someone on the internet claimed he was german and a literal nazi is no evidence at all.

Ok, so someone above already cited how "Aspergers" is a literal, direct reference to a Nazi. My burden of proof is covered, now you have the claim and must prove it. Go on :)

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#193

Post by wavegeek »

howinteresting wrote: post #75
fragmede wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pre-Godwinning the discussion doesn't raise discourse, it dumbs it down. Yes that's the history of the term but it was also the accepted term until after its removal from the DSM in 2013, and not everyone that grew up with that term is as plugged in as you and gotten the memo to moved over to the new term yet. It's fine to be angry at neurotypical people who use it as a slur, but you won't win many converts attacking…

It isn't Godwinning when an actual German Nazi is involved.

> actual German Nazi

Asperger was Austrian. Asperger was never a member of the Nazi party.

Impressive to make 2 errors in 3 words.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#194

Post by howinteresting »

wavegeek wrote: post #193
howinteresting wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't Godwinning when an actual German Nazi is involved.

> actual German Nazi Asperger was Austrian. Asperger was never a member of the Nazi party. Impressive to make 2 errors in 3 words.

Congrats, you got me there.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#195

Post by wavegeek »

Lammy wrote: post #62
akvadrako wrote: post #3

It takes a while to get to the point, but this is what the page is about: As we explained in a recent review paper, researchers have repeatedly found evidence that Autistic individuals are, on average, more consistent, less biased, and more rational than non-autistic individuals in a variety of contexts. Specifically, many Autistic people seem to be less susceptible to cognitive biases, and therefore better able to m…

> it could indicate that at least mild Autism is a beneficial adaptation Not picking on you or your post, but it's interesting that we still consider this an adaptation. What if this is humanity's natural state and allistics are the adaptation?

> allistics are the exception?

Actually this seems unlikely given the sequence of evolution. But...

Here is a spoof of Allistic Spectrum Disorder imagined as if it affected a small minority of people (trigger warning for those obsessed with status).

From [nonexistent] DSM-VI: Hyper-Social (Allistic) Spectrum Disorder

HSSD is a syndrome in which there is an over-focus on social phenomena at the expense of other aspects of the world. Contrast with Autistic Spectrum Disorder, which is in many ways the opposite.

Diagnosis: Any 5 of the following are present:

Inability to express self clearly; use of ambiguous and vague language; discomfort with clear language

Obsessive interest in knowing personal details of acquaintances or strangers e.g. celebrities, or even fictional characters

Unfounded belief in being able to read other people's minds, in particular to know if someone is lying or not.

Difficulty in thinking in a systematic logical way, e.g. to do math or program computers

Tendency to try to bend and stretch rules for no obvious reason. Discomfort with accurately following instructions and processes.

Forms beliefs based on the opinions of others rather than on facts and evidence Tendency to affiliate with groups and to align all opinions to the group

Frequently lies, mostly for social convenience (studies suggest 3-5 times a day)

Preoccupied with social status and “looking the part”

Focus on status symbols, and symbols of virtue and group affiliation

Focus on appearances more than underlying reality

Intolerance of diversity of opinion

Intolerance towards people who do not have HSSD

Spends large amounts of time on shallow “social” activities with little actual content. May lead to destructive activities such as substance abuse e.g. alcohol, and over-eating.

Lack of interest in mastering difficult, especially technical, subjects in depth Tendency to stare into people's eyes, and to believe that this gives great insight into the other person's mind. Usually unaware that this can create discomfort in the other person.

Tendency to think that staring into people's eyes demonstrates trustworthiness.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#196

Post by nathias »

kragen wrote: post #156
nathias wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, in the long run it's all rational, but in the long run we're also all dead. Even if that were the case, you are not a star, you are not near equilibrium, you are alive and don't have time to play long term rational games.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you try to walk across the desert without drinking water you will be dead in two days. That's not "the long run." If you carry water and salt with you, you can make it a week or more, but not if you strategize poorly: walking during the day instead of at night will deplete your water much more rapidly, and if you treat your canteen carelessly you will lose the water. If you…

That's not really the concept of rationality I or the article is talking about (consistency, non-bias etc.) knowledge or it's use isn't the same, it's more like the a priori knowledge where the concept is immediately applied by universal rules etc. This specific rationality is good in formal games where the rules are universal and the concept should be immediately applied, but doesn't work for empirical contexts (life, science, engineering, etc.).

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#197

Post by wombatmobile »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #95
wombatmobile wrote: post #82

ADHD people have a different calculus that affects their project management. NonA-DHD typically respond to deadlines with increased urgency, commitment, and re-factoring assessments. ADHD may respond to deadlines by abandoning tasks and starting new extraneous tasks. Is that rational? It’s what happens, and since it is such a dramatic and consequential difference, it warrants a reconsideration of the meaning of the t…

Is it truly transient? I know some people "grow out of it", but it seems plenty of people are afflicted for life. Am I misunderstanding what transient means in this context?

Transient in some people in certain circumstances. Not transient in others.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#198

Post by coldtea »

zeckalpha wrote: post #179
coldtea wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if it leaves one unable to function effectively in society, or seriously hampered in that, it does make sense to differentiate from a less strong case.

That is a problem with society being severe, rather than the autistic individual

Well, the society is what it is.

If a person can't e.g. talk to someone to buy food, and the huge majority of people can, then they have a problem. That's not severe - it might be not perfectly accomondating, but it's reasonable. And of cource society does try to help in many ways (consulting, people being understanding, parents, school experts, medicine, etc)

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#199

Post by PeterisP »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #183
PeterisP wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the world I live in, there's a strong correlation between a previous price and a future one. While it's not always the case and all kinds of factors apply, previous price is a quite relevant signal. In the absence of any additional specific information, if I know that ticket to city A was cheaper than a ticket to city B, then it's reasonable to assume that a future ticket to city A is a bit more likely to…

That doesn't answer my question at all - the statement was that it's "easier", not "cheaper" to go to that city at later time. Price is just one single factor that may influence how easy it will be later compared to now. Maybe a significant chunk of your motivation to visit city A was to see it covered in snow and do some winter sports, so if you cancel it now you'll likely have to wait a whole year to do it again? O…

All of your examples apply equally to both A and B (since we don't have any other information about the differences between A and B) and thus have no impact at all on the expectation about the difference between future cost or easiness or benefit/utility of the travel to A versus B, so these arguments can and should be ignored.

On the other hand, the previous price is a signal that does provide some information about the differences between travel to A and travel to B and allows to make a better-than-chance decision than treating both options as equal.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#200

Post by m_fayer »

wavegeek wrote: post #188
georgestephanis wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes hi, "aspergers" is an unfortunate nomenclature and many autistic folks (myself included) strongly resent it. It was named after a Nazi doctor (Hans Asperger) and used to classify autistic folks into "useful" and "non-useful" people -- as Nazis and Eugenicists are known to do. When you think of it, if you could refer to folks on the spectrum as such, without referencing the outdated nomenclature (the DSM-5 replace…

> Nazi doctor Asperger was never a member of the Nazi party. I invite everyone here who has stood up against a murderous totalitarian dictatorship at the likely cost of their life to tell us how Asperger should have done better. > now everything falls under the Autism Spectrum This is only true in the US. And people who were previously diagnosed as Aspergers retain that diagnosis, even in the US.

I want to strongly second this. Asperger was a complicated person with a complicated story in a brutal context, but ultimately a sympathetic and insightful man. His story is told in "Neurotribes" which is a thorough history of autism, and highly recommended.
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