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Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

eev.ee

191–200 of 237 posts

Re: Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Customizable look and feel means lack of consistency, and confusion as to why things look different without good reason.

Consistency is overrated. Context is what matters. And context often requires customized controls. We will never live in a world where an abstract concept like a checkbox can have an 'assigned' specific visual affordance that doesn't allow for adjustments. Such thinking is stuck in the past and won't allow for new/better UI paradigms.

Consistency is a shortcut to usability; context is the long way 'round. Don't take the long way unless you're prepared to do so with care.

Re: Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

#192
post #164

I recently started to fork webkit to make it a Webview with a reduced attack surface. [2] The most interesting part was the Quirks.cpp file [1] that contains literally randomized css classnames inside the web browser code because a major website was so shitty and spec violating in their implementations. I mean, fixing a website in a browser source code...this shit got out of hand real quick yo. The problem with all t…

this looks like a bug? [0] || domain.endsWith("hulu.com"); should be ".hulu.com", since anyone can register a hulu.com [0] https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit/blob/ce237483d034e41eff8cc5...

Whoever owns cthulu.com may be wondering why browsers behave weirdly only on their production servers.

Re: Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly it - by limiting javascript you are choosing to be in a minority of users and then demanding to be catered to. You're just setting yourself up for disappointment. These are businesses - they write code to generate profit. Their support of limited javascript has no impact on profit, so they won't do it.

Or as developers we be good stewards towards the web and the feature isn't complete until it's tested to at least not completely bug and give an error message when a script or resource isn't loaded.

You're not going to delete a dll or not install DirectX then get annoyed when the software fails.

Re: Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

#194
I tried a bunch of different browsers today on a lark, because Firefox has become the monstrosity it was once created to replace, and new Linux distros just keep getting slower and slower on this aging Core i7-6500U laptop. The browsers included Edge, Epiphany, Vivaldi, Opera, Otter, Palemoon, Netsurf, Dillo.

Let me tell you, it was a gas. So many broken pages. Such a wide range of performance and "user experience". Browsing with Dillo was like looking at the internet through an abstract art painting, which was even more striking because I still remember when I could actually browse most websites with Dillo, and now links2 -g (remember how Links has graphics mode?) is literally more usable for browsing the web.

Turns out Epiphany is extremely minimal, fast, and renders pages well (and even supports Firefox Sync? that's cool), so I'm gonna try that as a daily driver.

Re: Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

#195
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why would they make it a config file, when they can just add it to the code? Config files are like code, but even more shit. You never get the full set of functionality that you get with code, the compiler doesn't check your work, code navigation can't help you, and there's no debugger.

Whew, you need to try some Dhall then. Types, functions, imports all in a non-Turing-complete configuration language.

It sounds kind of funny to say “this should be in a config, not in code, but here’s a config language that lets you code your config”.

Regardless, I don’t think Dhali was around at the time Quirks.cpp was created.

Funny story, my first exposure to ruby was using it to write ant (or was it maven) config files (EJB nightmares) because the XML config sucked pretty bad (around Rails 1.0 era). It was far more concise and easy to work with, being an actual language and English readable, but I was never sure it was a good idea in a large team environment. If Java hadn’t been so cumbersome I would have used it for config as well instead of the hot garbage XML config was (is still?). I’ve seen a bajillion attempts at config languages since then. Most not great.

Re: Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

#196
post #17

I know this is likely to be controversial, but JS improves the user experience a lot, both in terms of interaction and speed, as well as making development more manageable (if used correctly), alas at the expense of annoying purists who would prefer to enagage in all sorts of CSS/HTML gymnastics just to avoid using JS (and other kinds that would prefer vanilla JS to frameworks). Do that in a large project and you'll…

> JS improves the user experience a lot, both in terms of interaction and speed, as well as making development more manageable

Almost. Most JS (caveat Google Docs etc.) creates the kind of experience users have come to expect. That's orthogonal to "improving" the user experience. Because of the keeping-up-with-the-joneses effects of frontend engineering and design patterns as spearheaded by giant, framework-authoring, standards-setting companies, there are strong incentives to converge on bad outcomes. For example, consider the common trend of replacing built-in controls with equivalents made out of "div soup" for the sake of providing consistent styling. This is done because it is thought that styling controls is a table-stakes necessity for interactive websites. Many studies indicate this, and many users request/demand it.

It's also misguided.

That's not to say that the studies--or the users--are wrong. But "this is how it is done and this is how we want it" is a norm, not some objectively superior optimum, and it's a norm that was created by many years of development. Some of that development was necessary, and advanced the state of the art. But much of it was fad/hype-driven, poorly thought-through, and slipshod. The end result is a bunch of tools/patterns/user expectations that bear little relation to what actually improves user experience.

In other words, JS often only improves things if you grant that the currently accepted definition of "improved" is actually an improvement over using other tools; often, it is not.

> at the expense of annoying purists

In other words, engineers. Engineers more interested in delivering quality than complying with norms or maximizing marginal click revenue by adding the 157th tracking library to a 50MB bundle.

> CSS/HTML gymnastics

Engineering.

Re: Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

#197

Finally. I am so happy someone else noticed how much of a garbage fire Twitter is when you limit (not even block ) JavaScript. I use uMatrix and a hardened Firefox profile so I notice pretty quickly if websites are poorly made. Spoiler: the vast majority are, and the big players like Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc. are absolutely the worst offenders. But Twitter is so frustrating because of exactly what the article's…

> when you limit (not even block ) JavaScript Speaking as a web developer, blocker of JavaScript by default, uMatrix user, and extensive user script writer: limiting is vastly harder to deal with than blocking; your “even” is unjust. “No JavaScript” is easy to detect and cope with (even if it’s just to respond “nah, dude; JavaScript me, bro”), but coping with blocking some JavaScript requires you to consider what cou…

I'm sorry, but the vast majority of websites handle umatrix and ublock plus assorted other privacy tools, just fucking fine, often when I haven't enabled any javascript beyond the same domain stuff.

Then there are the sites that are kinda/mostly broken until I enable a couple of obvious exceptions I should probably have universally enabled. That's fair.

Then there are the sites that it takes a minute or two of messing around to get to work..I have to whitelist 10+ different domains for them. That's irritating.

Then there are the sites that I can't seem to get working properly at all, and eventually give up and just open in a private mode tab in Safari, because I trust that combo the most.

Parent commenter was right: Twitter is a dumpster fire that throws a hissy fit at the drop of a hat, in way very few other sites do; it's almost like they do it purposefully out of spite.

It's a fucking glorified PLAIN text messenger. There is no excuse for the level of complexity and unreliability of the code they throw at browsers, from such a large organization with such supposed high-level engineering talent.

Re: Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when you limit (not even block ) JavaScript Speaking as a web developer, blocker of JavaScript by default, uMatrix user, and extensive user script writer: limiting is vastly harder to deal with than blocking; your “even” is unjust. “No JavaScript” is easy to detect and cope with (even if it’s just to respond “nah, dude; JavaScript me, bro”), but coping with blocking some JavaScript requires you to consider what cou…

I'm sorry, but the vast majority of websites handle umatrix and ublock plus assorted other privacy tools, just fucking fine , often when I haven't enabled any javascript beyond the same domain stuff. Then there are the sites that are kinda/mostly broken until I enable a couple of obvious exceptions I should probably have universally enabled. That's fair. Then there are the sites that it takes a minute or two of messi…

Twitter works fine with JS/XHR enabled in uMatrix for first party and *.twimg.com. It’d be better if they didn’t bring twimg.com into it, better still if they supported operation without client-side scripting, but I don’t observe the problems you’re reporting.

Re: Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

#199
post #65

These complaints are 20 years old now and in the meantime i keep building successful JavaScript heavy applications

Is it you that built Epic Games store homepage, that has appealing performances on mobile because it can't be bothered to display a list of games without heavy use of Javascript? That's what "successful JavaScript heavy applications" also leads to, developers never testing these on $50 android handsets and not caring about performance the slightest.

Re: Maybe we could tone down the JavaScript (2016)

#200
Maybe developers need to start testing their javascript heavy webpages on low end phones and computers to realize the terrible impact of javascript heavy webpages and how it's not very "inclusive" since it discriminates against the people who can't afford high end phones or PC? Especially when most administrative tasks now rely on filling forms on the internet, mobile or desktop.
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