Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start • Hacker News Board

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#191

Post by yurishimo » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:48 PM UTC

klipklop wrote: post #170

black_puppydog wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it isn't. There are tons of examples of whole industries just switching to user-/customer-hostile practices/products, meaning there's simply no more way to vote with your wallet. Happened like that with even trivial things like the milk market in Germany. Within a year or two, fresh milk had suddenly all but vanished from the shelves. Once pay-for-fob becomes the norm, good luck trying to enter that market w…

It is the solution, just the consumers don't have the guts to go through with not buying. The average buyer now seems to have little self control. The companies as you pointed out take advantage of it and work together to screw everyone. I do recall the non-fresh milk in Germany. Shelf stable ultra pasteurized milk tastes terrible. In the US you can still get even raw milk.

Where in the US are you referring to? I know it's available, but I can't say I've ever seen it for sale in a large grocery store. I've only seen it at farmers markets or similar small farm ventures.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#192

Post by ajross » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:48 PM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #55

xyst wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Apple Car actually materializes, I fear this will become the new standard. All cars come with all bells and whistles, but you have to pay monthly fees in order for them to function. - Want heated seats? $1/month - Want remote lock/unlock? $2/month - Want to remove rate limiting? $5/month - Want GPS in your car? $10/month - Want to use your "frunk"? $10/month - Want Apple CarPlay? $15/month - Want to activate h…

I don't think that this is a problem if it's marketed clearly upfront. The violation here is for Toyota to add this fee on without informing the user of this when they bought it.

I can't believe I had to read this far down to find someone making this point. Exactly! There's nothing wrong with a subscription-based feature at all. Lots of people would love the ability to price-discriminate ("Do we actually need remote start? Is it worth $8/mo?").

The ethics problem here isn't the subscription at all, it's with the clear and good faith communication of what the product is to which the user is subscribing.

In this particular case, it seems like the Toyota Remote Connect service was sold and marketed as a phone app, but when terminated it also removes the capability of remote starting the car over local radio (probably bluetooth I guess) from the key fob, which no one seems to have known was part of the product in the first place. That's bad, if so.

(But to be fair, a better article would track down some Toyota owners for quotes about what they were told, and maybe a copy of the original license agreement. This coverage from Ars is IMHO a little weak.)

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#193

Post by jkaplowitz » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:48 PM UTC

Phenomenit wrote: post #157

winternett wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many other car makers do this too. My Volvo has a remote start feature installed (that I paid for in buying the car) that is not accessible without enrollment in a (pretty much useless otherwise) monthly subscription service. It's flat out criminal considering that I could have just bought the device with a remote at Auto Zone for 1/4 of the price (that also doesn't allow the auto maker to track/log each time I use i…

I think some of the reasoning behind the fee is that there's a simcard in the car that needs to be payed for and if you opt out then they don't have to pay for it. I have the same service and I can't live without the remotly started heating so for me it's worth every krona.

That might very well justify some fee, but $8/month is excessive if one only cares about remote start.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#194

Post by jasonpeacock » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

silisili wrote: post #178

phkahler wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of this tragic but true story about a man and his dog that died in a Corvette because the door failed to open electronically. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/06/11/te... If your car door uses electricity to open, you best know what to do when that system fails. Death should not occur due to failure to RTFM for a door.

Wait what, do Corvettes not just unlock and open when you pull the handle? Every vehicle I've ever owned, from the 80s to now, manual or electric lock, the front doors both open when the handle is pulled, locked or not. If this isn't the case, I'm almost inclined to consider that criminally negligent.

In my 2021 Honda CR-V this is a configurable option - you can decide which behavior you want.

For example, you don't want your kids to open the doors while you're driving. Or you don't want a car-jacker to reach through the window and open your door.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#195

Post by Someone1234 » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

kristjansson wrote: post #112

Someone1234 wrote: post #36

And the toxic trend of corporate short-term-ism continues... This is clearly set up as a gotcha with a 3 year/10 year "trial" included, then suddenly $80(!) a year. The irony is that both periods are right around the time different demographics start to consider a new vehicle, and Toyota has just pulled this nonsense. You may be thinking $80/year isn't so bad if it includes breakdown coverage/SOS button, but you'd be…

Surely its $51/month (8 + 8 + 35)? Not that that isn't outrageous, but it's not 275/month outrageous

I fixed the above and added an edited note.

I originally erroneously calculated $80 + $80 + $80 + $35 mixing up "per year" on the first three with "per month" on the last. It should be $80 + $80 + $80 + $420 or $660 per year.

Toyota charges $8 per month or $80 for an annual subscription[0].

[0] PDF warning: https://www.toyota.com/content/dam/toyota/connected-services...

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#196

Post by nyx » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

This is such a sleazy game to play, and it looks to be getting more popular as corporations realize the average consumer just accepts it. Zero Motorcycles, the longest-standing electric motorcycle manufacturer, has announced for their 2022 flagship models that things like battery capacity and charge rate will be gated behind one-time in-app purchases, which is mind-boggling. Having to lug around batteries you can't charge to full capacity on a bike, where space and weight are at a premium, actually makes the product worse if you don't pay the rent. Hoping this strategy blows up in their face, but all indications suggest it's going to be lucrative and the angry minority will just have to eat it.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#197

Post by 14u2c » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

zeroflow wrote: post #43

pradn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right to point out that these problems arise across entire industries. You can't vote with your money if all otherwise good TVs have crap built into them. And it's not easy for a new entrant to gain a foothold in such a high-tech market. And even if they do, there's plenty of temptation to go down the same route of milking customers who already bought your product. Sooner or later, we won't even remember how i…

The topic with the TVs is going to be a problem for me in a few years. My current TV is from 2013 - it may have some years to go, but at some point, it will fail. I've had a short look at the market, and all the "good" brands (Samsung, LG, Sony) show horrific ads. It looks like the cheap brands simply sell your data. Then there are some local brands, which sell non-TV TV's (no tuner, there's a tax on that). They don'…

What you are looking for are generally sold as "large format displays". Basically tvs for commercial purposes that do not have any of that crap. Most projector manufacturers, even the consumer ones, have also been good about avoiding "smart" features.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#198

Post by alkonaut » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #166

I consider this a totally unnecessary thing. When they start charging to start my car, then we've got a problem. However, I do resent them inflating the base price by putting more unwanted h/w into the base model only to be activated as SaaS. EDIT: Snark removal.

> Totally unnecessary thing only kids do.

I use remote start when it's really cold. I thought that was the whole point of the feature (When the regular gasoline heater isn't enough, it can also run itself warm for a few minutes).

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#199

Post by csours » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #101

I don't know how could anyone think it is a good move inside toyota. $8 falls in the range that it is irritating for consumers yet the lifetime revenue per car is probably 1% of the average car value(5 year lifetime with 2 years free means $250 lifetime revenue). Is it worth it for 1% increase in revenue.

Disclosure: I work for GM, anything here is solely my own opinion.

Different revenue to a different organization inside the OEM. When you sell a $20k car, you get maybe $1k in profit, maybe less. If you can get $8 monthly recurring revenue you get maybe $7 in profit. Also consider that the lifetime is not 5 years. The AVERAGE age of cars on the road now is over 12 years. My parents drive 20 year old cars.

Also consider the friction to cancel. Maybe you get a few more months of revenue with someone sells the car or after it gets scrapped.

To be clear, I am not arguing in favor of this kind of thing at all.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#200

Post by errcorrectcode » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

Ownership is evaporating due to technology and a lack of viable alternatives. The idea is to make personal ownership more expensive and trouble that it's worth (monetize misery) so that manufacturers can run their own FSD car sharing fleet so they can charge you whatever they want. Rent-seeking, oligopoly FTW.