Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates • Hacker News Board

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#191

Post by wrycoder » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #66

wrycoder wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in the US, the civil service is politicized and its employees are 95% in favor of one party, as shown by their political donations history.

> Except in the US, the civil service is politicized and its employees are 95% in favor of one party, as shown by their political donations history. That's not at all generally true historically, even if you drop the made up specific number and say something like “vast majority", of US civil servants; it is true of some states, localities, or agencies, and reversed for others. 2020 looks like that, but the 2020-2021…

Thanks for the link!

I'm referring to the Federal government. I will amend down to 85%!

I think 2020 is more representative:

https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=W03&cyc...

I'd say the Federal civil service starts at Health and Human Services and below.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#192

Post by refurb » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

kiba wrote: post #53

roamerz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this isn’t about almost anything else. This is about control over one’s body. This is from someone who chose freely to get the vaccine. Even at my own peril I support other’s freedom to choose.

Your freedom to control over one's body ends when it comes to the safety and health of other people's bodies. That's why herd immunity is a thing.

So you’re against abortion since it impacts the “health and safety” of other people’s bodies?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#193

Post by claytongulick » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #60

bko wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to what types of medical orders are allowed to be given to patients Suppose an anti-abortion president gets elected and he elects someone as head and tells them that health care providers that accept medicare or medicaid cannot provide abortions. Not making it illegal per-se, but just for the providers that accept medicare or medicaid for any of their services. You okay with this as well?

> Suppose an anti-abortion president gets elected and he elects someone as head and tells them that health care providers that accept medicare or medicaid cannot provide abortions Not comparable. Based on current law, abortion is a Constitutionally-protected right. Based on precedent from the Spanish-flu era, the government has broad public health powers. All that said, as someone who isn’t a fan of how much power Co…

You should probably read the Jacobson decision more carefully [1], since you believe that it grants the government the right to mandate vaccines.

The decision is much more narrow that you've been led to believe.

It specifically addresses state police powers, not federal powers.

It also doesn't mandate vaccination, it allows a small fine to be paid instead.

Also, according to a well known attorney I consulted (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) the Jacobson decision has been overturned countless times and is considered an awful ruling, the Healthcare equivalent of Dred Scott.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#194

Post by shadowgovt » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

rglover wrote: post #170

hestefisk wrote: post #61

Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated, ultimately resulting in stockpiles of vaccines getting destroyed … people in third world countries cannot get adequate access to vaccines. This is madness.

> Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated [...] These people were considered heroes last year (and overwhelmingly exposed to this virus while everyone else stayed at home). Now their judgment is in question because they won't follow the herd, with all of their medical experience/e…

"Hero" and "Good decision-maker" aren't covariant signals.

Most footsoldiers who die in a war are considered heroes, and people can consider them that without holding in their heads at the same time the idea those soldiers would have made good generals.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#195

Post by zcw100 » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #91

DSMan195276 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. Where-as them being vaccinated for COVID does have a very clear impact on medicaid/medicare patients, especially since medicare patients are more likely to be in a high risk group (IE: old). It seems to me like you just d…

> The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. There's no mechanism to enforce this reasoning. It's whether the agency has the power to do it or not. For instance it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines, so excluding healthcare workers w…

> it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines

It could be argued that we should wait for benevolent space aliens to come and cure it. Just because it could be argued doesn't mean it's a good argument.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#196

Post by refurb » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #90

hestefisk wrote: post #61

Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated, ultimately resulting in stockpiles of vaccines getting destroyed … people in third world countries cannot get adequate access to vaccines. This is madness.

After 6 years back in the US, I'm starting to get a bit of a 'gut feeling' that it's time to get out again.

If personal freedom scares then yeah, time to get out.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#197

Post by kansface » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

javagram wrote: post #156

bingohbangoh wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the CDC have regulatory mandates to ensure vaccination? Does this extend to "get vaccinated or get fired?" People very broadly give power to the CDC that I don't think they have.

Why are you mentioning the CDC? Do you know that the two federal mandates were issued by CMS and by OSHA, two completely different organizations from the CDC? BTW, the law as written gives very broad powers to OSHA and other agencies. This is controversial mainly because one political side in the country is anti vaccine right now.

Bodily autonomy is perhaps the central tenant of liberty. There is plenty of room to be for vaccines and against (federal) mandates.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#198

Post by beerandt » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

traviswt wrote: post #136

Bhilai wrote: post #97

Mandates are probably not going to work but what would work is denying insurance claims. If someone ends up in a hospital occupying an ICU bed for an illness that could have been prevented by a vaccine widely and freely available then insurance companies (and medicare) should refuse to pay thousands of dollars for their treatment. It was their choice not to use preventative care available.

Is it just this specific situation that causes you to feel that way? Or should all diseases which have some amount of preventative protocol be treated the same, perhaps STDs? And what about other choices that impact emergency care? Obesity related illness and injuries, smoking and other cancer-inducing habits, dangerous activities such as motor sports and rock climbing, workplace injuries without appropriate PPE, aut…

This is why nationalized/ government healthcare implementations, even at the level of Obamacare, are so dangerous.

It literally gives government moral authority over who deserves care and who doesn't. "Universal" healthcare, as long as you're part of the universe that does exactly what the government tells you to do.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#199

Post by bingohbangoh » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

javagram wrote: post #156

bingohbangoh wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the CDC have regulatory mandates to ensure vaccination? Does this extend to "get vaccinated or get fired?" People very broadly give power to the CDC that I don't think they have.

Why are you mentioning the CDC? Do you know that the two federal mandates were issued by CMS and by OSHA, two completely different organizations from the CDC? BTW, the law as written gives very broad powers to OSHA and other agencies. This is controversial mainly because one political side in the country is anti vaccine right now.

Ok, then CMS or OSHA.

My point still stands. Vaccine enforcement and mandates was not even considered as under their purview. It's quite hair-splitting to say "there's nothing that says they _can't start enforcing vaccine mandates_."

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#200

Post by odessacubbage » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

gopalv wrote: post #86

belltaco wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are healthcare workers. Jobs have requirements. They're free to quit instead of increasing the dangers of disease for their sick and older patients who are at highest risk for covid. No one is controlling their body any more than making it show up at work in order to get paid. Coal miners are forced to work in dangerous conditions around the world in order to keep their job. Getting a vaccine is far less risk,…

> Jobs have requirements Most of the argument is whether this requirement is in the "employee must wash hands before surgery" category, which is about the patients' right to be safe not the employee's (in theory the patients didn't "choose" to be there). The people complaining are reacting as if the ruling sounds like "male high school teachers get vasectomies, to keep teenage pregnancies down", because the effects a…

>checklists have always existed

this is also the first time where the vaccine industry and the broader public health space have been put under this kind of scrutiny and the combination of politicization, outright lies and deception over masks and policy in both directions and the overall visibility of the sausage making process happens to be occurring alongside a decline of trust in institutional expertise. when most people got their tetanus shots, the faces of the medical profession were not acting as explicitly political agents.