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The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

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Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#191

Post by theonething »

throwawaygh wrote: post #178
theonething wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your response. Out of the four you listed, the only church in the traditional sense of the word is the Greek Orthodox parish. The next two are Jewish and Buddhist temples and the fourth one is community/health center offering things like ballroom dance lessons. But if we expand the scope to houses of worship, then temples are included. I think I've heard of churches charging nominal fees for church members…

> I think I've heard of churches charging nominal fees for church membership, but not requiring tithing Requiring tithing is not particularly common, but I'm also not surprised when I hear of churches where it happens. A lot of this probably depends on your tradition and geography. Requiring tithing is entirely unheard of in the mainline and very uncommon in the northeast generally, for example, but seems to be sligh…

> Just because there isn't a formal requirement doesn't mean that there isn't intense social pressure that creates a de facto requirement.

That may be the case at some churches, but I would assert that that kind of social pressure is wrong and unbiblical.

"Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." - 2 Corinthians 9:7

So for a church where this social pressure exists, that is the fault of that particular church (it's leadership and/or people), not churches or Christianity in general. Anecdotally, I've never experienced this kind of pressure at any church I've attended or been a member of.

> To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual

> The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion...

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organiz...

Churches qualify for 501c3 tax exempt status because they are religious organizations and are non-profit. Same goes for mosques, temples, etc.

So why is using "church" in the traditional Christian religious sense and being exempt from taxes bad?

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#192

Post by mahogany »

watwut wrote: post #159
mahogany wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what ways are the (current) traditional models in public education "proven"? Genuine question. Speaking of ethics, it doesn't seem entirely ethical to force students to memorize a bunch of facts (chosen by whom?) and regurgitate them for arbitrary grades for over a decade, as if that has something to do with education. Certainly there is some lasting psychological damage inflicted by that methodology.

You are building strawman there. No one said anything about testing something you memorized years ago. And also, quickly changing methodologies sux, because they change faster then teachers can really learn and become experienced in teaching that way. And same applies to students, because different methodologies have different expectations on how they should behave. So, you have constantly teachers doing something th…

I didn't mean that students would be tested on something they memorized years ago -- I was instead saying that this "memorization + testing => grades" methodology is forced on students for many years. I don't think it's a straw man because, at least in the US, this has been the standard model in the majority of public schools for the past several decades. The article that we are discussing specifically mentions pushing back on that paradigm. The parent commenter called the ethics of applying this "unproven fad" into question, so I think it makes sense to compare this to the ethics of the standard model.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#194

Post by melony »

zdragnar wrote: post #144
theonething wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing This sounds very suspect to me. Do you have any sources for this assertion? I've never heard of a church requiring any form of support, tithe etc to be a member or at all. I've been attending church and have been a member of several for 20+ years.

Tithing 10% comes from the laws of moses in the old testament, and most denominations agree that providing some material support to the church is an obligation, but dont formally specify the extent. Catholic parishes often recommend 5% to the church, and 5% to the poor / needy through one means or another. OTOH, a nearby Unitarian / mega-style church made signing a form with your annual salary and a pledge to tithe a…

Are tithes tax deductible?

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#195

Post by throwaway894345 »

melony wrote: post #194
zdragnar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tithing 10% comes from the laws of moses in the old testament, and most denominations agree that providing some material support to the church is an obligation, but dont formally specify the extent. Catholic parishes often recommend 5% to the church, and 5% to the poor / needy through one means or another. OTOH, a nearby Unitarian / mega-style church made signing a form with your annual salary and a pledge to tithe a…

Are tithes tax deductible?

Yes.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#196

Post by tomByrer »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #175
throwawaygh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dad would write a significant check to the church every month That's also tithing (and is completely normal for regular church goers... bible says 10% to the church and a lot of folks follow that prescription)

Yes, of course. But I'd be surprised if the majority of churchgoers tithe 10%. My guess is that there's some Pareto principle wherein 20% of the congregation ("members" in some churches) seriously tithe and the other 80% might toss a little into the collection plate but aren't giving anywhere near 10%. Of course, I expect this varies tremendously from church to church and even from denomination to denomination.

Average is 3-5% last I heard. https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/statistics/wh...

Reality is, most non-profits' (church & non-church like NPR) budgets are funded by a small handful of very wealthy/generous donors. Not even 80%/20% rule, more like 80% of donations/sponsorships are from ~5% of the people giving money, the other 95% people giving's total is a small % of budget.

That's why in all non-profits, the leadership has to 'report' to a small number or rich donors. Piss off a couple of the rich, your non-profit will fold.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#197

Post by throwawaygh »

theonething wrote: post #191
throwawaygh wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think I've heard of churches charging nominal fees for church membership, but not requiring tithing Requiring tithing is not particularly common, but I'm also not surprised when I hear of churches where it happens. A lot of this probably depends on your tradition and geography. Requiring tithing is entirely unheard of in the mainline and very uncommon in the northeast generally, for example, but seems to be sligh…

> Just because there isn't a formal requirement doesn't mean that there isn't intense social pressure that creates a de facto requirement. That may be the case at some churches, but I would assert that that kind of social pressure is wrong and unbiblical. "Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." - 2 Corinthians 9:7 So for a church where…

> So why is using "church" in the traditional Christian religious sense and being exempt from taxes bad?

It's not, per se. Although I do think the Parsonage exemption is wrong and should be repealed, and I do think "religion" as a criteria for non-profit status should also be removed from tax code. Just treat Churches like any other 501(c)3. What's the problem with that? (Answer: many churches spend untaxed money on things that would lose them their 501(c)3 status if they weren't religious organizations... which is almost always also unbiblical stewardship of church finances, so it's perplexing to me that any practicing Christian would oppose at least the latter change to tax law).

But, again, that's not what I was saying. What I critiquing was your characterization of Buddhist temples and Synagogues as "in the traditional sense of the word" (your owrds).

That traditional sense has no meaning in the USA. Go read court opinions. "Church" does not imply Christian. "Gospel" doesn't even imply Christian. Because, if those things did imply Christian, most of the tax benefits that are unique to churches would be struck down as state establishment of religion (protestant Christianity, to be precise). These aren't my opinions. They're the law. "Church" and "Gospel" are interpreted to mean, roughly, any group that meets regularly and has some sort of spiritual tenets.

Anyways, again, this is all far off-topic from my original post, which in fact characterized tithing in a positive light.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#198

Post by glial »

krageon wrote: post #166
glial wrote: post #61

Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments. I attended St John's College - which is probably as close as a "real" school can get to the Catherine Project - and loved every minute. Grades were not given, and there were no professors or lectures. Seeing criticism about the business model and lack of tests, worry about educational fads, etc, is missing the point, in my opinion. Consider the possibility that…

Given that these types of schools (at least in Europe) have a long history of delivering students not ready for jobs or subsequent education, the scepticism is entirely warranted.

The article's not about a school.
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