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An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

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Re: An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

#191
post #148

Every time I read about decentralization, I remember this episode from NPR Planet Money (one of the best podcasts, btw). It's about Libertarian Summer Camp where they tried to spend a day without fiat money. Gold standard everything. Turned out it's actually pretty hard because you have to get gold, and make sure the gold isn't fake, all by yourself. You bought a hotdog with the gold and now you have to worry about i…

[deleted]

Re: An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is always my issue with things in this space. There's a list of bad things to be fixed or good things to achieve. And then there's a technology like [jazz hands] blockchain . But when you ask how they relate, it gets very handwavey. When I was at Code for America in 2015, somebody dropped by one of our events to buttonhole me about [jazz hands] blockchain for governments. I listened politely for a while and then…

At its heart, the strongest claim blockchain technology offers is pretty good data consistency assurances between nodes that don't trust one another. I guess that's kind of interesting as a technical demonstration, but it's hard to see what's actually the practical benefit of that. This has been around and under continuous development since 2008, and still no actual use case. It seems like the space is full of hype-b…

That's because everyone fell for the systems fallacy. Blockchain was designed for bitcoin to function, for that purpose alone. Then because it worked for that one use case of a decentralized storage/transfer of value, people assumed they could make it work for everything else. Not how technology works.

Re: An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

#193
> However: just because you don’t need a blockchain to do something doesn’t mean the industry won’t settle on using blockchains to do it anyway. The technology industry is immensely path dependent. Particularly when buckets of money appear, feedback loops can form whose outcomes seem all but inevitable. Speculators and venture capitalists alike have inundated crypto with cash. There’s a certain reflexivity to it: when cash pours into anything, the intrinsic value of the thing is at least the value of the cash… and potentially much more, if that cash is invested productively! Blockchains may become the future — including for use cases where they are not natural fits — only because their story was told, speculated on, invested in, and told some more.

This bothers me: That we could end up with expensive, unnecessary systems that exist not because they offer a tangible benefit but because everyone just kept going along with things, collecting investor money and ignoring criticism until it was too late.

I don’t see that being apocalyptic necessarily, I think Adam Smith’s scythe will mow down any companies that make truly bonkers decisions on this stuff. But it bugs me that we could collectively spend years arguing about this and building blockchains and training a generation of blockchain engineers only for the near totality of blockchain stuff to fail for reasons that were evident from the beginning.

Re: An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is always my issue with things in this space. There's a list of bad things to be fixed or good things to achieve. And then there's a technology like [jazz hands] blockchain . But when you ask how they relate, it gets very handwavey. When I was at Code for America in 2015, somebody dropped by one of our events to buttonhole me about [jazz hands] blockchain for governments. I listened politely for a while and then…

At its heart, the strongest claim blockchain technology offers is pretty good data consistency assurances between nodes that don't trust one another. I guess that's kind of interesting as a technical demonstration, but it's hard to see what's actually the practical benefit of that. This has been around and under continuous development since 2008, and still no actual use case. It seems like the space is full of hype-b…

I think its important to add, with open group membership to that definition.

If there is a known fixed list of nodes participating in the system, blockchain again becomes a bad choice.

Re: An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

#195

Not going to lie, I thought and still think that the whole Web 2.0 thing was clever marketing and window dressing on top of fairly pedestrian but useful technologies. It was actually less of seismic shock than mobile first which despite being a bigger shift didn't actually get a number. As far as I'm concerned, Web3 is beyond this. It's what happen when you let Ponzi schemers write the marketing material. I can't for…

> It doesn't help that I personally have yet to see a use for a blockchain which isn't replicating an existing financial instrument while trying to avoid the eyes of the state.

That's kind of the whole point. Money without a state and without permission. If you don't believe in that then of course you won't see the value in decentralized finance.

Re: An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

#196
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riding off a wave of addicts and their enthusiasm for gambling. Meanwhile, Cash App, Apple Pay, and Stripe have done more for fintech in the past month than all other cryptocurrency technologies combined in the last decade.

Bingo. They can't even get their numbering scheme right. This would be "web4" Disregarding the semantic web throws out the history of the tech that sought to build p2p knowledge graphs before the social giants pushed it aside. They care little for these concepts given their blatant disregard.

Honestly i think its perfect.

Both are big ideas that sound very impressive to an outsider but problematic once you get into the details.

Re: An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

#197
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Original author here. Totally. I’m old enough to remember when Web 3 was the semantic web, so I guess I don’t put much stock in the label. And, personally, I’m really interested in crypto-less federated systems like Mastodon and some of the stuff the Indie Web community has built. I have no idea if those are, uh, web3 enough for web3.:-) As for the question of casinos, I think @pinboard’s description of Web 3 as “an…

The web3 movement should be be inclusive of IndieWeb and federated ActivityPub ecosystems. Interoperability and open standards paved the way for all of this, and it'd be a shame to toss that out of the window for some pie in the sky vapor. edit: by inclusive , I mean adoption and funding. The wheel does not need to be re-invented, poorly.

Do usenet newsgroups meet the definition of web3?

Re: An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blockchain isn't even central in Web3, but it surely helps. Web3 = decentralized identity, full data and connection graph ownership by user, reputation transfer, verification via zero knowledge proofs, support for VR/AR and 3D objects. All of this stuff is either in prototype or draft phase, but it's ok. These things need to be built to stop horror stories on HN about "algorithm justice" and "data kingdoms”: - Google…

Sure, but that’s replaced with user’s being in control of their identity (permanently). Lose your keys, you’re out of luck and locked out of who knows how many applications permanently. It might be fine for us, but just think of the less technically inclined folks in your life. Are they going to remember a 32 word phrase or use a password manager for a key? And what happens if they’re hacked? If google detects your a…

I think the idea of fully decentralising all the things as per web3 or the move to crypto is really interesting.

But if the last couple years has told us anything it’s that it’s being immediately met with a wave of recentralisation where some ungodly percentage of crypto wallets are all sitting with centralised providers and services, which still require email/password entry.

I fail to see how a non-tecnhical user is going to migrate from where we are now to keeping all their keys by themselves (Sorry I recognise you’re agreeing with these points as well basically but started replying here so might as well finish)

Re: An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how web3 solves any of your bullets? If you are trying to say that web3 will prevent platform holders from banning you from their platform, then good luck with that. Any platform can and will ban you and have complete control over their platform. Thinking web3 is going to prevent that is naive for many many reasons. If Facebook bans me then web3 isn't going to allow me to post on Facebook still. Same…

This is always my issue with things in this space. There's a list of bad things to be fixed or good things to achieve. And then there's a technology like [jazz hands] blockchain . But when you ask how they relate, it gets very handwavey. When I was at Code for America in 2015, somebody dropped by one of our events to buttonhole me about [jazz hands] blockchain for governments. I listened politely for a while and then…

I remember when the massive early growth of Napster led to a similar hype cycle around P2P, with overblown articles in Wired proclaiming it to be the answer to everything. Around 2004 I was CTO of a company building a streaming music service and I got a call from the CEO of a P2P-based CDN. I asked him some basic questions trying to find any reason I might consider them. It became clear that it would make no sense for us - their pricing was above the quotes I had received from other CDNs and I had no confidence in their reliability. The only selling point was whatever residual buzz P2P had at that point. He quickly became agitated and began yelling at me about how I "didn't get it". The company was called Red Swoosh and the angry CEO was Travis Kalanick. A few years later he somehow managed to sell it to Akamai, and as I recall it was shut down within a year.

Re: An engineer's observations on Web3 and its possibilities

#200
Discord but access is granted by owning a specific NFT. Mint limited numbers of the tokens for specific groups. The value of the token ends up being based on the current members. Want in? Buy a token off someone. Done with the group? Sell it. Exclusivity is appealing to many.
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