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Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

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191–200 of 237 posts

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#191
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then it's going to be weaponized to launder money We should stick with USD. No one does anything illegal with USD

Holy fucking strawman, Batman! Way to skip over the different potentials for abuse and just dive to the cryptonerd's handwaive argument. Looking forward to your insights about rubber and glue.

"bitcoin is for illegal things" is the OG handwaive argument so nothing substantial was needed to swat it down :)

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#192

I don't think the energy criticisms are that warranted. In my mind, it speaks more to a criticism of how poor our current energy infrastructure is. I don't think for example in 30 years it'll be a big problem when energy becomes more abundant and building nuclear reactors are easier. And this is coming from someone who believes Bitcoin is little more than a Ponzi scheme and most of the innovation in fintech is happen…

But isn't the security of proof-of-work derived from it being cost prohibitive to put up more work on a fraudulent (e.g. double spending) chain? So if energy becomes an order of magnitude more abundant or cheaper, doesn't that just mean that the amount of energy spent on mining will increase by the same amount?

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good riddance. I don't think KYC/AML are a force for good. Its just more box ticking laws that serve to give a false sense of security while poor people are being excluded from the banking system and normal people have their all their data stolen from centralized databases. Real dangerous criminals don't give a damn about KYC/AML laws and operate freely within the banking framework. The European Central Bank chairwom…

Good or bad, "no KYC/AML" is not an option. If governments decide Bitcoin can’t provide KYC/AML, Bitcoin will be nuked from orbit.

You are over-estimating the power of governments. The last Chinese ban is a good example of how governments might not be able to ban crypto. Smaller economies will have a harder time too.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#194
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There would first be 1 broadcasted on-chain transaction setting up the channel, with X of my bitcoin and Y of your bitcoin being locked up. This prevents double spend. Then, you and I pass n signed transactions between each other updating our balances Xt & Yt for each t, t+1, ...t+n. At any time, either one of us can broadcast the final transaction with the most up to date balance and unlock the coins.

So it requires one on-chain transaction per pair of parties instead of one per transaction? Clever and I suppose useful but seems a little limited in use, given that the funds are locked the whole time. Good for two parties that frequently have transactions going in both directions?

That's right. You can also form a chain of these channels, so Alice can pay Bob even though she doesn't have a channel with him, if they both connect to Carol using atomic transactions that update the 2 channels accordingly.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#195
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it was "designed to be", but in reality it isn't. BTC has a history, so if I had 1 BTC, and you had 1 BTC, they wouldn't be equivalent. When you deposit BTC into a Coinbase account from a gambling site, CB shuts down your account. That is irrefutable proof that BTC is not fungible. Compare it to cash which is fungible. If you win money at a casino and deposit it at a bank, the bank doesn't know where you got th…

> If you win money at a casino and deposit it at a bank, the bank doesn't know where you got the cash from. You're off base here. There's serial numbers on money and many databases maintained both public and private meant to track those and flag inflows of marked bills. The bank absolutely might know where you got the cash from -- the difference is that there are legal guarantees for the fungibility of cash. It is en…

You're right about dollars being only legally-fungible. It's been hypothesized that there are databases tracking when and where dollars are used based on serial numbers, but to my knowledge, there hasn't been any reliable confirmation of that. If there is such a database, at least it's not publically available like Bitcoin's is. So, I agree with you that Monero should be used over Bitcoin (disclaimer, I own some XMR).

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#196
post #166
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one of Ethereum's lead researchers talking about the attacks in that paper. The fixes are simple and not expected to delay the merge. https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/11/02/finalized-no-31/

Written for public consumption that post conveys a great deal of certainty while eliding over doubts: "Change fork choice rule to mitigate balancing and reorging attacks" https://ethresear.ch/t/change-fork-choice-rule-to-mitigate-b... And more fundamentally at the heart of the matter https://ethresear.ch/t/comment-on-three-attacks-on-proof-of-... > Moreover, there is a general argument that the attacker will always b…

> mathematically provable binary consensus algorithms known in this universe have n^2 behavior

Is there a convenient way for an uneducated schmuck like me to read up on this? Just a comment without references isn't much to go on.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#197
post #49
post #47

Can anyone explain why my genuine question below -- "When will BTC move to an energy efficient protocol?" -- was flagged? Seems a bit gratuitous?

I didn't flag, but if that's what you wrote, it's off-topic. It's also tedious. We get it. It uses energy by design. You can count on any HN Bitcoin discussion to bring out the environmentalist in almost anyone.

It's not off-topic at all. But I can see how it's tedious.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#198
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but in this analogy, bitcoin is american express, not USD. American Express cards are definitely considered less valuable to potential customers here because they're only accepted in ~70% of stores. It's been a bone of contention at my current employer as our corporate cards are American express but they consequently can't be used semi-frequently

This is not the right way to look at it though. Bitcoin is not an alternative payment system. People keep getting confused on this point, partly because of how bitcoin was marketed in the early days (there obviously is no marketing team, just passionate people telling their stories about what they thought it was). Bitcoin is the bedrock of an alternative monetary system. Visas and AmExes will be built on top of it, j…

If only it were in fact an alternative. If only you could look at a BTC-rich person and conclude from their wallet balance that they've made meaningful contributions to society and are therefore deserving of whatever they're trying to pay you for in BTC. That would be cool.

But that's no more likely to be true than for a USD-rich person. Whatever ill-gotten USD gains have occurred in the past are easily transferrable to BTC, which means that its really just an alternative portal into the same monetary system, or perhaps the next evolution thereof. The only difference is that this time it doesn't have anybody behind the monetary-policy steering wheel.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#199
post #192

I don't think the energy criticisms are that warranted. In my mind, it speaks more to a criticism of how poor our current energy infrastructure is. I don't think for example in 30 years it'll be a big problem when energy becomes more abundant and building nuclear reactors are easier. And this is coming from someone who believes Bitcoin is little more than a Ponzi scheme and most of the innovation in fintech is happen…

But isn't the security of proof-of-work derived from it being cost prohibitive to put up more work on a fraudulent (e.g. double spending) chain? So if energy becomes an order of magnitude more abundant or cheaper, doesn't that just mean that the amount of energy spent on mining will increase by the same amount?

Correct. Bitcoin's "difficulty" parameter will tend to increase as cheaper energy costs allow the total mining network hash rate to increase.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#200
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't consider dollars less valuable if they're paid via American Express, even though it's less accepted than Visa. As long as there's a critical mass of users somewhere, the "who accepts what" problem reduces to a software problem that most people will ignore.

No, but in this analogy, bitcoin is american express, not USD. American Express cards are definitely considered less valuable to potential customers here because they're only accepted in ~70% of stores. It's been a bone of contention at my current employer as our corporate cards are American express but they consequently can't be used semi-frequently

I'm not saying that the government can't ruin your day if you're trying to buy things with bitcoin and they ban it in your country. I just don't think that doing so will have much effect on its perceived value, globally speaking.

Consider BTC-backed debit cards, which give the illusion of paying in bitcoin where only fiat is accepted by converting the tokens at transaction-time. For a government to prevent things like that will require that government's citizens to bear costs that other citizens don't:

- pay the regulators to keep crypto disconnected from fiat

- pay the payments companies to hire people to comply with the regulators

- tolerate the necessary censorship and subsequent unrest when it is abused

This kind of nonproductive spending will hash out as a drag on that government's currency. It wouldn't be crazy for its citizens to start stocking up on crypto (perhaps illegally) as a hedge against local fiat-collapse. Surely a downward spiral for the local crypto user experience, but a problem for BTC as a whole? I don't think so.

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