Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged • Hacker News Board

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#191

Post by mlyle » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:29 AM UTC

prepend wrote: post #135

mlyle wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's 2.6 * 10^8 cubic meters of compacted dirt and rock needed to raise the island by 10m-- which is more than 1500 kg/cubic meter (1.5 tonnes/cubic meter). The largest bulk carriers manage about 400,000 DWT. So, about 1000 trips of the largest around... ignoring the logistical and ecological challenges of procuring that much material and using it to raise the island in a durable way.

That actually seems pretty achievable since there’s centuries of time needed to raise 10m (assuming we keep on without any controls). I hope the math for how much it costs isn’t so low as to be sad to fix this problem in the wrong way.

I'm not sure how much you need to raise the island. Just matching sea level rise isn't enough, because Tuvalu would really be better off being a couple meters higher to reduce storm damages before climate change started, and climate change both raises the seas and makes intense storms more common.

But more importantly than the amount you need to raise the islands: 26 sq km * 1 meter probably doesn't raise the islands anywhere close to 1 meter, because of:

* Early losses from erosion and compaction

* The angle of repose around the islands (you can't just build the island straight up 1 meter).

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#192

Post by wahern » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:31 AM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #115

ocschwar wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, a nation with a thriving Polynesian culture is probably the best place to collect atoll refugees.

Perhaps, perhaps not. In Hawaii there is actually a lot of tension between the Kanaka Maoli (Native Hawaiians), the Marshallese, and Micronesians. I am not keen as to exactly why this is, but I think it underscores the importance of providing more resources for both the Pacific Islanders already living receiving limited assistance, and the new arrivals. I think the government shouldn't just assume they'll get along b…

I don't know if there's a word for it, but pretty much every nation has at least one other nation that it traditionally looks down upon, usually one that to outsiders seems quite similar and which often have in fact strong ties between them. France and England are a classic example, though maybe a little odd in that it's mutual. (I suppose Argentina and Chile are similar in that regard--each thinks the other is categorically beneath them?) Sometimes there's a clear regional hierarchy, like U.S. -> Mexico -> Guatemala even though it's not necessarily obvious to all involved--U.S. has traditionally looked down on Mexico but doesn't have any sense of a hierarchy beyond that, whereas Mexicans might not care less what people in the U.S. think but certainly feel they're better than Guatemalans. Sometimes it's a non-transitive circle. It can be very complex, and it doesn't have to make any sense, though often it's a simple reflection of comparative wealth or prestige. But it's a universally understood phenomenon. There's the famous quote by Jean-Jacques Dessalines, leader of the Haitian Revolution, who circa 1804 called the Polish "the White Negroes of Europe", exempting them from the murderous extirpation of all white-skinned people in the newly independent state. Fast forward to the 21st century and British prejudice against the Polish (and specifically Polish immigrant laborers) is a major impetus for Brexit.

Anyhow, I've learned to be careful about equivocating nations or cultures. Saying something like, "country X seemed just as nice as Y" might rub someone from X or Y the wrong way.

It's all thinly disguised racism, of course. But it does pose an interesting woke paradox: what if all a nation has left is its prejudice against another nation?

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#193

Post by mamborambo » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 5:02 AM UTC

There is a large movement towards distributed statehood/citizenship built on the view that people should treat the government as a service or utility and not overlord. Cue micronations, charter cities, e-residency, and tax havens schemes. The fascinating idea that people can renegotiate and redefine their relationship with the land, the government, and the economy of that state, is a very 21st century concept, but one that is progressing rapidly on the back of Internet, global shipping, digital nomads, borderless visa areas, cryptocurrency, and metaverse.

When this idea has developed to maturity, it is not inconceivable that states can be virtual, territoryless, and still represents a sizeable demography, collects tax and manages assets, and provides laws and order for that group.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#194

Post by vurpo » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 5:02 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #192

BitwiseFool wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, perhaps not. In Hawaii there is actually a lot of tension between the Kanaka Maoli (Native Hawaiians), the Marshallese, and Micronesians. I am not keen as to exactly why this is, but I think it underscores the importance of providing more resources for both the Pacific Islanders already living receiving limited assistance, and the new arrivals. I think the government shouldn't just assume they'll get along b…

I don't know if there's a word for it, but pretty much every nation has at least one other nation that it traditionally looks down upon, usually one that to outsiders seems quite similar and which often have in fact strong ties between them. France and England are a classic example, though maybe a little odd in that it's mutual. (I suppose Argentina and Chile are similar in that regard--each thinks the other is categ…

I think it's actually that human cultures are infinitely nested, with every group containing subgroups with some level of disdain towards each other. Conflicts on a higher level often seem to "override" conflicts on the lower levels (although I don't know how often this actually is true). For example: I'm from Finland, and if our team plays hockey against Sweden it's as if there's a war against them or something. However, if Sweden plays against Canada you'll still see people cheer for Sweden over here.

I believe this reveals the existence of a tree-like hierarchy (very loose) of human cultures, and I also believe it goes way lower than just the country level (all the way down to individual people). xkcd also said it a long time ago: https://xkcd.com/1095/

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#195

Post by postsantum » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 5:24 AM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #190

hammock wrote: post #109

The image of the government official standing in the water "on what used to be dry land" is quite dramatic.[1] Unfortunately that land is not underwater due to climate change-driven sea level rise, but due to soil erosion. They do mention this fact, however the focus of the article inexplicably remains on rising sea levels. A factchecker might call that "missing context" (or worse). [1] https://www.reuters.com/resize…

> Unfortunately that land is not underwater due to climate change-driven sea level rise Did anyone think it to be the case? That the sea levels have risen a meter already and we just haven't tuned in to the news recently enough to learn about it?

People are suffering, people are dying ™

You would be suprised if you knew how many people think oceans will be boiling in 50 years

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#196

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:12 AM UTC

Svip wrote: post #29

rectang wrote: post #3

If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a st…

The Sovereign Military Order of Malta has had observer status at the UN since the early 1990s despite having no territory.[0] They issue their own passports and enters intro treaties like a regular state. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Ma...

[deleted]

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#197

Post by smegger001 » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:19 AM UTC

number6 wrote: post #131

hasmanean wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very grim assessment. But yeah they might become the worlds first virtualized state for stateless people.

I can already see the Press Release: Meta preserves the Culture and unique Landmarks of Tuvalu on the Metaverse. The State of Tuvalu lives on through the efforts of Meta and is the first fully virtual State.

i can see the headline now, Tuvalu crashed today after a memory leak in the last unity update caused the citizens clients end render to crash when to many npc were on screen at the same time. a patch for tuavalu should be out soem time in the next few days citizens are not recommended to role back to the previous version as it contains a know zero-day exploit.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#198

Post by otabdeveloper4 » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:36 AM UTC

malermeister wrote: post #166

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point is, the hand-wringing and the cries of "won't-somebody-do-something!!" are silly. If you really believe what you say, then go and act. A time of great crisis is also a time of great opportunity.

This is not a time for individuals to act. We need systemic change, not me recycling more or whatever. People like you trying to push the responsibility on the individual is why humanity will go extinct.

Systemic change is made from individual actions, and a time of crisis means individual actions get huge leverage.

tldr - if you really believed in a climate crisis you'd be acting differently.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#199

Post by pkphilip » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 8:04 AM UTC

cblconfederate wrote: post #147

pkphilip wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? many countries make their own islands, adjust their coast lands and do other sorts of geoengineering. Building tall platforms isn't that controversial either.

The UNCLOS allows them to make artificial islands in their EEZ, but to have an EEZ they must be a country first.

Tuvalu is a country. It became an independent nation in 1978 and is a member of the UN.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#200

Post by cblconfederate » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 8:11 AM UTC

pkphilip wrote: post #199

cblconfederate wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UNCLOS allows them to make artificial islands in their EEZ, but to have an EEZ they must be a country first.

Tuvalu is a country. It became an independent nation in 1978 and is a member of the UN.

YEah it will be interesting to see how it can be treated if it has no territory . Technically most of UN conventions require territory to be applicable. Territorial waters are defined based on this land, which has to be natural.

Most likely this will be treated like when a country invades and destroys another: .TV will cease to exist and its citizens will be absorbed in other States.