Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#191

Post by r3trohack3r » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 12:26 AM UTC

caylus wrote: post #87

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix is very easy to cancel, though? There's a big honking "cancel membership" button on the top level account settings page. It's actually more prominent than other entries on the page. http://imgur.com/a/09XZ9jb Also very easy to change your plan level up or down.

Yeah, I would guess that the important difference is that Apple emails a receipt for all subscriptions every month, making it much less likely that someone forgets about their subscription when they no longer regularly use it.

Netflix auto-cancels inactive accounts, granted it's after 2 years (>$250 in the American market).

https://about.netflix.com/en/news/helping-members-who-havent...

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#192

Post by CardenB » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 12:27 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #187

jacurtis wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For comparison Netflix spends about $1.2 Billion dollars per year on AWS (Amazon Web Services). Their total revenue last year was 27.5B. So that means that AWS fees account for 4.3% of Netflix's revenue. AWS is streaming video, operating hundreds of edge location CDN locations, and everything else running on expensive server infrastructure. AWS has real serious costs with offering that service, to the point that Netf…

Apple by comparison demands 15% which is 3.5x as much of a cut. Apple provides credit card processing, and approval into the App Store (plus according to a comment in this email, it sounds like they keep Netflix in the App Store promotion rotation as "free" ad-space). This isn't anywhere near the value that AWS provides That's debatable. To put it mildly. Apple provides them access to, literally, nearly a billion pot…

Apple doesn’t provide access to these customers. Maybe a small portion are limited to iOS access for Netflix.

In reality there are many general service platforms that provide access to Netflix in combination with ISPs.

If chrome had a 15% fee to allow users to access websites then I think it would be pretty damaging to innovation on the web.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#193

Post by mlang23 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 12:28 AM UTC

jacurtis wrote: post #145

ksec wrote: post #83

I am pretty sure I read something similar before. Probably from Benedict Evans or somewhere else. I think the most important issue from these email isn't the lack of Alternative App Store, IAP, or 70/30 split. It is that Apple Execs has Zero understanding of how other business works especially with respect to Internet or Software Services. They continue to think Netflix as a physical product ( As they often like to c…

For comparison Netflix spends about $1.2 Billion dollars per year on AWS (Amazon Web Services). Their total revenue last year was 27.5B. So that means that AWS fees account for 4.3% of Netflix's revenue. AWS is streaming video, operating hundreds of edge location CDN locations, and everything else running on expensive server infrastructure. AWS has real serious costs with offering that service, to the point that Netf…

I think you are underestimating the value of being present on the platform that is Apple. I basically only created my Netflix subscription (which I cancelled by now) because it was super easy to sign up on my Apple TV. I probably wouldn't have bothered to do so on a PC.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#194

Post by ngcc_hk » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 12:30 AM UTC

Back to basic : Can you paid offline and not used IAP and still maintain an account so both iOS and android can used your paid system to do say Netflix. If so you cannot argue their pricing … it is apple iap. Or Google iap. You are using their payment system.

If any paid content or game must use their iap and forced to pay … then there is an argument whether the set price is fair. Like is Mac Pro is fair. If you do like it is there any alternative. Given there is two players …

For low end developer …

For high buck developer …

Price discrimination is really a monopoly way to do things. Or tie-in sale. Not sure forcing apple to do it is right.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#195

Post by mbesto » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 12:35 AM UTC

jacurtis wrote: post #145

ksec wrote: post #83

I am pretty sure I read something similar before. Probably from Benedict Evans or somewhere else. I think the most important issue from these email isn't the lack of Alternative App Store, IAP, or 70/30 split. It is that Apple Execs has Zero understanding of how other business works especially with respect to Internet or Software Services. They continue to think Netflix as a physical product ( As they often like to c…

For comparison Netflix spends about $1.2 Billion dollars per year on AWS (Amazon Web Services). Their total revenue last year was 27.5B. So that means that AWS fees account for 4.3% of Netflix's revenue. AWS is streaming video, operating hundreds of edge location CDN locations, and everything else running on expensive server infrastructure. AWS has real serious costs with offering that service, to the point that Netf…

> This isn't anywhere near the value that AWS provides, despite demanding a much higher premium.

> Apple is wildly delusional on the value that they provide.

For non-Netflix-like services, strongly disagree. A service with no customers means 0 costs required to pay AWS. Say what you want, but sales & distribution is one of the most important, if not THE most important factor of a business.

> They already have the marketing power to force people to subscribe at their website.

Yes, Netflix specifically does, but other developers who leverage Apple's ecosystem? Not so much.

What's interesting here is that other traditional distributor and retailers of goods and services often have negotiated rates. Apple does no such thing - it's rate is fixed (on paper), meaning Apple thinks is distribution is equal in value for all developers - I think this is where the criticism should be.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#196

Post by Wowfunhappy » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 12:36 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #178

spiffytech wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple seems to maintain the expectation that they deserve 30% of revenue from massive corporations like Netflix, Amazon, etc. That's exactly what Apple believes. From Tim Cook's testimony in Epic v. Apple, from Ars Technica: > The in-app-purchasing (IAP) system itself, Cook said, is simply the most efficient way of collecting a 15 to 30 percent commission on each in-app sale. "If not for IAP, we’d have to come up w…

Yea, legally it’s clear Apple can charge whatever they want. The actual leverage large companies have is by not having their Apps on iOS Apple may lose customers. But at this point I doubt Netflix is willing to risk it as there is simply to many streaming options. However, Netflix doesn’t need to use IAP so for them it’s a question of increased conversions with IAP rather than dropping the platform. Assuming their al…

> But at this point I doubt Netflix is willing to risk it as there is simply to many streaming options.

Well, but as you point out, they aren't using IAP at the moment so there's nothing to risk.

An interesting question is what would happen if Apple decided to play hardball and demand Netflix use IAP again, with no external option, similar to what is required for video games. Honestly, my money would be on Netflix pulling out of iOS.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#197

Post by askvictor » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 12:37 AM UTC

drexlspivey wrote: post #113

jw1224 wrote: post #91

I wonder why Netflix don’t want their content to be searchable in Apple’s TV app: > “Since TV App is not going to happen right now, there’s nothing else to get from Netflix at this time” The TV App is actually pretty great — one of the few parts of the Apple ecosystem where the garden walls are very low. I can search for a TV show or film, and even when the iTunes Store has it available, TV still suggests I watch it…

Netflix doesn’t want their content to show up in apple TV search because they don’t want to give access to their user’s data to Apple. It’s a terrible anti-consumer decision and frankly it was one of the last straws that led me back to piracy after many years. All I wanted was a universal search for content instead of having to go into each provider’s app. I am now using Plex/Sonarr/Radarr and it works flawlessly, a…

I'm not quite sure this is the case, given that Netflix seems happy to share that data with Google on AndroidTV/GoogleTV devices.

The thing that's lead me back to piracy is not Netflix itself, but the proliferation of streaming providers, with their exclusives. Let me pay for the show I want, easily, and I'll pay for it. Make me jump through hoops and subscribe to services I don't want, well, it's just as easy to torrent it. Netflix didn't screw this up; it was every studio wanting to lock viewers into their own service.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#198

Post by richardw » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 12:41 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #187

jacurtis wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For comparison Netflix spends about $1.2 Billion dollars per year on AWS (Amazon Web Services). Their total revenue last year was 27.5B. So that means that AWS fees account for 4.3% of Netflix's revenue. AWS is streaming video, operating hundreds of edge location CDN locations, and everything else running on expensive server infrastructure. AWS has real serious costs with offering that service, to the point that Netf…

Apple by comparison demands 15% which is 3.5x as much of a cut. Apple provides credit card processing, and approval into the App Store (plus according to a comment in this email, it sounds like they keep Netflix in the App Store promotion rotation as "free" ad-space). This isn't anywhere near the value that AWS provides That's debatable. To put it mildly. Apple provides them access to, literally, nearly a billion pot…

Apple’s value is the set of customers who sign up first on iOS rather than web (edit: and who couldn’t be nudged to the web). I’d guess the number isn’t the full billion, but enough that Netflix doesn’t want to lose them.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#199

Post by martimarkov » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 12:46 AM UTC

jacurtis wrote: post #145

ksec wrote: post #83

I am pretty sure I read something similar before. Probably from Benedict Evans or somewhere else. I think the most important issue from these email isn't the lack of Alternative App Store, IAP, or 70/30 split. It is that Apple Execs has Zero understanding of how other business works especially with respect to Internet or Software Services. They continue to think Netflix as a physical product ( As they often like to c…

For comparison Netflix spends about $1.2 Billion dollars per year on AWS (Amazon Web Services). Their total revenue last year was 27.5B. So that means that AWS fees account for 4.3% of Netflix's revenue. AWS is streaming video, operating hundreds of edge location CDN locations, and everything else running on expensive server infrastructure. AWS has real serious costs with offering that service, to the point that Netf…

Maybe this is not a popular opinion but I think that Apple do provide the value. They created the device, the OS, the marketing behind it, the physical stores, all of that. The iPhone is an iconic device because of all the investment Apple put into it. Yes, there are also the millions of developers and apps out there.

But the one thing that Apple did right (for me and I guess most iOS users) is that they kept control over the UI & UX. This was my main driver into getting an iPhone. The fact that I interact with Apple and not just every developer in the world. I want to keep that interaction. What I don't want is for most apps to force me to enter my personal info (email) and card details store them somewhere "securely". I want to have a single vendor I trust (arguable this might not be Apple atm). But for me and for most ppl I know that single place is the thing that is the driving factor to keep in the eco system.

What I don't understand is why developers feel entitled (maybe the wrong word) to harming my UX by requesting external payment methods. Again, the investment for this "great" eco system comes from both sides and Apple do deserve a % of that. Maybe 15/30% is not fair but this is the free market. You can always decide not to develop for iOS - nobody is forcing you. Except your customers who I feel in this case developers/companies ignore as per the given theory above.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#200

Post by tshaddox » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 12:51 AM UTC

emsy wrote: post #118

netcan wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is naive, IMO. Even if the app store was run differently, say allowing a competing way of installing apps, Apple still have plenty of fungible power to make such deals. You might have ticked a box to make it technically fair, for some definition of, but that would probably be just cosmetic. IE, app store would still represent most revenue and everyone is in the same position but a few geeks. The "platform game"…

You said it's naive but didn't actually present a reasonable alternative.

emsy's claim was that Apple's App Store doing something bad isn't a problem, but rather that the only problem is that there aren't other app stores on the iPhone. The "alternative" is that, no, it's actually a problem that Apple's App Store is doing something bad.