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Young People Are Anxious About Climate Change, Say Governments Are Failing Them

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191–200 of 377 posts

Re: Young People Are Anxious About Climate Change, Say Governments Are Failing Them

#191
post #4

It's not just young people. I'm 56 and I'm going through a pretty serious personal existential crisis w.r.t. climate change. I think even the people who are worried about it don't realize quite how serious the situation is. I used to feel pretty confident that all of the really bad shit would not happen until after I was dead. I'm not nearly so confident any more. I now think there is a significant chance that I coul…

> God grant me the serenity > to accept the things I cannot change; > courage to change the things I can; > and wisdom to know the difference. Civilisation as we know it, and perhaps even humanity is in the process of ending. The ending is inevitable, whether it is now or nearer to the heat death of the universe. If you can personally try and affect change, then you should do it. But more likely, you are a slave to t…

> whether it is now or nearer to the heat death of the universe

That makes a huge difference. Even having it wind down over a period of a few thousand years, or even a few hundred, would be a hell of a lot better than what is looking like the increasingly likely prospect of having it wind down in a few decades. That is going to cause an incalculable amount of pain.

Re: Young People Are Anxious About Climate Change, Say Governments Are Failing Them

#192
post #137
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure people are frustrated, but I wonder what the consensus, if you could fine one, would be. Probably despair that they've been failed by my generation, my parent's generation and (since they're to a large extent the ones still in power, at least in the US), my grandparent's generation. Since, as you point out, change takes time in democracies, and even longer internationally, it was our collective jobs to avo…

Let's say people in the 70s knew climate change was happening. That it was the prevailing consensus and had the necessary evidence. What were governments supposed to do? What technology were they going to leverage? did we have computers, modelling, alternatives? Cars with ICE could have become more efficient, yes. But where else could we have cut the fat? Fewer people via worldwide contraception, to stem demand? More…

In the US, we could have built cities and suburbs which did not necessitate owning an ICE vehicle (at least for the majority of residents). We could have pushed the development of electric cars, which were certainly plausible in the 90s. We (the US gov't) could've stopped subsidizing fossil fuels. Heck, with the end of the cold war, the US could've substantially cut military spending, which accounts for a rather non-trivial portion of the nation's carbon emissions. More generally, we could've taxed carbon emissions to correctly account for the externalities they generated (which it was certainly possible to compute in the 70s: the energy companies themselves were doing it!), which would've likely shifted land use away from cattle, energy generation away from coal, &c.

These are things which are, quite clearly, at least an order of magnitude less than what we need to accomplish today, but since climate change is caused by the area under the emissions curve, perhaps that 50 year head start would've been enough. With the benefit of hindsight, it certainly would've been worthwhile to give it more of a try than what we actually did.

Re: Young People Are Anxious About Climate Change, Say Governments Are Failing Them

#194

I am always amazed at the level of denial among the people. I speak of the comments to this article, not the young people in question. The IPCC reports are quite conservative. The reason the 2021 reports were so dire is because they began including some of the feedback loop modeling the scientists preparing the report have become more confident in. More is in the pipeline. Somewhere along the line, it got political.…

I think there's enormous reason for concern, but... I also think there's a not-so-fine line between saying (A) that we will go through some major hardship and decreased quality of life as we attempt to mitigate and adapt, versus (B) civilization is finished, there's nothing left but despair and destruction, kids have no viable future on this planet, etc. The latter strikes me as a mass projection of millenarian eschatological thinking onto what is admittedly a troubling set of data. I suppose that policy makers find it useful, therefore, to stoke a certain amount of sky-is-falling panic, particularly among teenagers who are more inclined to be attracted to and scared of doomsday scenarios. But by the same mechanism (ie supplanting rational discourse with doomsday panic), a counter-movement scores easy points saying "look, nothing's happening." The same basic flaw on public messaging pertains to vaccines and masks. What seems to have happened is that those in charge of public messaging have concluded that the majority don't know enough or care enough about science, and so they need to tap into raw fear and emotional appeals just like the science deniers do. What this does, unfortunately, is cheapen the conversation to the point where we're measuring the stress levels of teenagers as if that were a useful metric of how severe climate change actually is or will be. Their stress levels, just like the stress levels of anti-vaxers, aren't based on rational thought; they're generated by fear-peddling from one messaging system or the other. As both these systems try to out-alarm each other, they tend to drift further toward worst-case scenarios and their exponents move closer to shouting for revolution (e.g. Jan 6th), if only to serve as post-justification for the hysteria they engender to serve their goals. Climate scientists shouldn't stoop to the level of deniers. It's too short a game to keep people in panic at all times. If we've learned anything from the failure of messaging during covid, it's that trying to sustain an endless freak-out doesn't work, and it's ultimately counterproductive, because daily life causes drift away from any singular narrative, and groups of people then grow stronger counter-narratives even more dangerous than those they had before.

I feel sorry for kids whose lives are made to feel meaningless and short-changed by this information warfare on both sides. Yes climate change is real and dangerous and yes the world needs to be proactive, and yes quality of life will decline, more in some places than others, and mostly falling on the global poor. Yes children should be educated about it and yes adults need to get ahead of it, including changing systems and practices that there is deep resistance to changing. But panicking the hell out of 14 year olds - or in this case, 50-somethings, that civilization is imminently coming to an end is going to have the terrible consequence of hastening or creating an end through instilling abject despair, rather than cultivating the means and the will to make the necessary changes.

Re: Young People Are Anxious About Climate Change, Say Governments Are Failing Them

#195
post #12

What exactly is "the" "right" climate?

The fact that climate change is a problem doesn't imply that there's a "right" climate. The rapid rate of change itself is the problem - and particularly the fact that that rate of change is faster than organisms and systems can adequately adapt to. Atmospheric CO2 levels have previously, naturally, been higher than they are today. The most recent time that they were that high, the land on which most of our populatio…

the fact that that rate of change is faster than organisms and systems can adequately adapt to.

And even this assumes that there is some sort of linear progression towards a semi-stable state instead of churning, unpredictable "seasons" for tens of thousands of years before the climate settles into something.

Re: Young People Are Anxious About Climate Change, Say Governments Are Failing Them

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was students who protested the Vietnam war, climate change and brought the piece movement. It was older voters that supported Tump, Brexit and Iraq war. When the Iraq war started, how old were people who were young during the Vietnam war protests? 2003 - 1965 = 38 Young person that protested the Vietnam war + 38 years = old person I don't think that the Vietnam war protesters were in favor of the Iraq war, but i…

Underlying every such discussion is an assumption that with age peope become better voters, but there is no reason to believe that and no data to support this notion. We know that IQ peaks at 21 and for most folks, unfortunately, their education ends when they complete university. For the next 60 years they don't become better informed, they just suffer through life, forget what they learnt and get ossified in their…

> We know that IQ peaks at 21 and for most folks

No, we know that IQ test scores (designed specifically for measuring relative intelligence in children) peak on average around 20-21 with very wide error bars (not “at 21 for most people".)

We also know that executive function peaks significantly later on average, and other categories of cognitive function peak on average at a variety of different ages, some 40+. [1]

> For the next 60 years they don't become better informed,

Yes, they do. IQ isn't knowledge, and peak IQ and peak information aren't the same thing.

[1] see, e.g., https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/when-do... and https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-80866-1

Re: Young People Are Anxious About Climate Change, Say Governments Are Failing Them

#197

> 56% agreed with the viewpoint that humanity is doomed, according to the study. Climate change is a serious issue, and one that stands poised to do a substantial amount of harm, but if the majority of young people think that humanity is doomed then I seriously suspect that there's misinformation about the impact of climate change at play here. Even the more pessimistic outlooks of climate change still leave substant…

You're talking of billions of deaths from famine and conflict from displacement. Should young people not be alarmed about the idea of a few hundred of millions of humans relegated to the poles of the Earth because the species was too stupid to stop destroying their own planet? If we can't prevent - or based on comments here, completely reject the reality of - the massive and preventable degradation of the only habita…

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Re: Young People Are Anxious About Climate Change, Say Governments Are Failing Them

#198
post #22

I'm sure people are frustrated, but I wonder what the consensus, if you could fine one, would be. What exactly are they expecting governments to change? Policy, power generation, transportation, what? And will they accept the necessary or resultant policies and changes? The above are "easy" if you have a totalitarian regime where what the autocrats say go, goes: China, Saudi Arabia, etc., most other countries are mor…

another issue is that changing something, greenhouse gas let's say, is harder on the margin. The first improvements are cheap, the later ones aren't. Looking at an EPA webpage, I see that current per capita US CO2 emissions are about 65% of the 1970 levels.

I can certainly see some of the problems. The real increases are in India/China. Union of Concerned Scientists shows that US share of worldwide CO2 is 15%, even a solid change is only a fraction of 15%. A lot of solutions (nuclear, fracking of natgas to replace coal, cutting immigration from the Third World to the First, etc.) are politically unpopular with climate activists. World population is supposed to peak at 50% higher than current level. GDP improvements (and energy use) could easily outstrip improvements in efficiency. etc. etc.

oh well, no one is asking me to run their lives so I'll just sit back and watch.

Re: Young People Are Anxious About Climate Change, Say Governments Are Failing Them

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reducing carbon emissions will make life worse for everyone who's already on the lower rungs of humanity. No realistic amount of resource redistribution is going to work here. The people on the "lower rungs of humanity" emit an order of magnitude less carbon than everyone else, and should be the last to cut.

> The people on the "lower rungs of humanity" emit an order of magnitude less carbon than everyone else, and should be the last to cut. I see this argument frequently and it annoys me. Poor people emit less carbon because they are poor . Do you want them to stay poor?!? I want a future where everyone can at least live a life as wealthy as mine. But my carbon emissions are much higher than that of the global poor. If…

You ever consider maybe modern civilization is inherently unsustainable?

Re: Young People Are Anxious About Climate Change, Say Governments Are Failing Them

#200
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use social media, HN notwithstanding, and it is plainly obvious to me from just looking out the window that climate change is substantial and accelerating. It is the most urgent and dangerous issue facing the planet. I agree social media is awful, but it does not follow that climate change isn't cause to panic. If anything, half of Americans are nowhere near panicked enough about climate change as the result…

I think the point here is panic doesn't solve any problems and probably only makes things worse. We'd all be better off with level heads.

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