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We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

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191–200 of 270 posts

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#191
post #24

"Our new economy is shrinking because technology leads to efficiency over growth." Anyone who wants to make the claim that technology is net killing jobs has to be prepared to answer the question: why now? Technology has been killing (but not net killing) jobs for centuries. It's possible that technology could start to net kill jobs. But why now, when it hasn't in the past?

I agree with pg - but for a different reason.

In the past, one of the most significant limiting factors on business growth has been the cost of human labour, and technological development has focused on working around this limitation, eliminating manual jobs and creating jobs improving the technology.

However, as the world population grows and certain very important finite resources, such as fossil fuels, become severely depleted (especially fossil fuel reserves that can be extracted with less energy than the fossil fuel contains), these resources become a more important limiting factor than human time.

I therefore predict that in the future, far more work on technological development will go towards sustainability, and less will go towards minimising human labour. Employment will rise, while the price of anything which is not sustainably produced will rise in real terms relative to the cost of labour.

Due to the relatively higher costs of energy intensive transportation, I expect that there will be some degree of reversal of globalisation with respect to physical goods (but not other industries). Technology will probably play a role in allowing one family or small local community to do locally what currently takes a global network of large companies.

I think inequality will still be a real risk long term - if we ever reach the point where the food production system can be completely automated, and everyone had at least enough technology / capital to produce what they needed to survive and be healthy, poverty would be eliminated - but if only a few people owned all the capital, and squandered most of it on luxuries while others starved, that would be a significantly worse outcome.

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#192

Don’t fill potholes. That won’t fix the economy. Uh, yes. Yes it will. The workers that fill those potholes will earn wages, which they can then use to pay for goods. By purchasing those goods, they pay other workers' wages, and the virtuous cycle continues. Listen HN, I love your knowledge of technology and entrepreneurship. But the economics posts on here are deplorable. We've seen disruptive technologies many time…

Don't fall for the broken window fallacy. If the government wasn't taking money from people via taxation to pay for pothole fillers, then the taxpayers would have their money to spend on what they really want, which would also maintain the virtuous cycle. What you see is the pothole fillers spending money, but what you don't see is all the people who had their money taxed spending less. (If the taxpayers weren't spending their money, it would be in banks being loaned out to other people who would be spending it.)

If what you're talking about is Keynesian government stimulating the economy in bad times by going into debt, that could also be accomplished by cutting taxes rather than borrowing to pay pothole fillers.

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#193
post #56
post #24

"Our new economy is shrinking because technology leads to efficiency over growth." Anyone who wants to make the claim that technology is net killing jobs has to be prepared to answer the question: why now? Technology has been killing (but not net killing) jobs for centuries. It's possible that technology could start to net kill jobs. But why now, when it hasn't in the past?

>But why now, when it hasn't in the past? One might well ask, why not now ? Given a(t) t, where a(t) = rate of new jobs created per year -b(t) t, where -b(t) = jobs lost due to technology per year Problem is, the function a(t) is stable and predictable over time, because human populations are generally sigmoids ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_growth ) Whereas the function b(t) feeds on itself ( http://en.wiki…

The corollary here is quite interesting: if we imagine this extending quite a ways into the future, we might ask what sort of society we'd like to live in far in the future, where more and more jobs are lost because technology makes them pointless for humans to do.

Say only 10% of humans had any skill whatsoever that would provide value that could not be more cheaply obtained by deploying technology. Say it got further, to 1%.

Imagine a world where only a handful of the most incredibly skilled humans can do anything better (i.e. more cost effectively) than a computer, and the rest are rightfully unemployed, because they have nothing to offer. A world where your 20 years of hard earned programming expertise is utterly worthless in the marketplace because an open source program exists that will read a plain language spec and spit out a good approximation of the same code you would have written, except without buffer overrun bugs and it'll be done in 20 seconds instead of three weeks. Where "lawyer" and "doctor" are professions-that-were because humans aren't fit to compete, and where one by one all the other careers considered unassailable today are swallowed up by increasingly sophisticated automation. Sure, we might be left with a few professions that require physical humanity (people will still want to see people in entertainment, for instance), but in the end, most of the wealth in the world will not be created by humans in any direct way.

You might start to understand why it's not such a terrible idea to move closer towards a socialist society as time goes on - eventually we're all going to be unskilled labor, possibly even unemployable, and we're close enough to that point (I'd say within a couple generations, at the outside, barring some major disruptions that hold back further technological progress) that we should probably start thinking about the consequences.

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#194
post #24

"Our new economy is shrinking because technology leads to efficiency over growth." Anyone who wants to make the claim that technology is net killing jobs has to be prepared to answer the question: why now? Technology has been killing (but not net killing) jobs for centuries. It's possible that technology could start to net kill jobs. But why now, when it hasn't in the past?

[deleted]

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#195
post #24

"Our new economy is shrinking because technology leads to efficiency over growth." Anyone who wants to make the claim that technology is net killing jobs has to be prepared to answer the question: why now? Technology has been killing (but not net killing) jobs for centuries. It's possible that technology could start to net kill jobs. But why now, when it hasn't in the past?

Technology is improving at a higher rate than humans -- our wetware/body have fundamental limits than hardware/software. Hence, at some point -- sooner or later -- we start to run out of jobs that we are willing to pay humans to do instead of machines. (Lowering minimum wages could delay but not stop that.)

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#196
post #192

Don’t fill potholes. That won’t fix the economy. Uh, yes. Yes it will. The workers that fill those potholes will earn wages, which they can then use to pay for goods. By purchasing those goods, they pay other workers' wages, and the virtuous cycle continues. Listen HN, I love your knowledge of technology and entrepreneurship. But the economics posts on here are deplorable. We've seen disruptive technologies many time…

Don't fall for the broken window fallacy. If the government wasn't taking money from people via taxation to pay for pothole fillers, then the taxpayers would have their money to spend on what they really want, which would also maintain the virtuous cycle. What you see is the pothole fillers spending money, but what you don't see is all the people who had their money taxed spending less. (If the taxpayers weren't spen…

Well, yes, instead of having potholes fixed, we'd be repairing the frame of our cars instead, at much much higher cost (and not doing other things). Further, pothole fillers end up employing lots of different kinds of people than a millionaire would. Finally, banks tend to loan to people with money... they don't typically loan to those who don't have money; it's not a zero-sum game.

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#197
Are inmates counted as unemployed?

I think technology slowly obsoletes economy. Pushes it towards more and more superficial exchanges and dissassociates price and value.

Since society is built on economy it finds out clever ways to no longer valid equation work = wealth

Young black people are missing jobs? Criminalise the thing they do and put them in jail. They are no longrt missing jobs an a handful of people might be hired to build and upkeep facilties where they are held.

There are a lot of such mechanisms that suck excess of available human work.

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#198
post #191
post #24

"Our new economy is shrinking because technology leads to efficiency over growth." Anyone who wants to make the claim that technology is net killing jobs has to be prepared to answer the question: why now? Technology has been killing (but not net killing) jobs for centuries. It's possible that technology could start to net kill jobs. But why now, when it hasn't in the past?

I agree with pg - but for a different reason. In the past, one of the most significant limiting factors on business growth has been the cost of human labour, and technological development has focused on working around this limitation, eliminating manual jobs and creating jobs improving the technology. However, as the world population grows and certain very important finite resources, such as fossil fuels, become seve…

[deleted]

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#199
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But why now, when it hasn't in the past? One might well ask, why not now ? Given a(t) t, where a(t) = rate of new jobs created per year -b(t) t, where -b(t) = jobs lost due to technology per year Problem is, the function a(t) is stable and predictable over time, because human populations are generally sigmoids ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_growth ) Whereas the function b(t) feeds on itself ( http://en.wiki…

The corollary here is quite interesting: if we imagine this extending quite a ways into the future, we might ask what sort of society we'd like to live in far in the future, where more and more jobs are lost because technology makes them pointless for humans to do. Say only 10% of humans had any skill whatsoever that would provide value that could not be more cheaply obtained by deploying technology. Say it got furth…

read "beggars in spain"

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#200
post #24

"Our new economy is shrinking because technology leads to efficiency over growth." Anyone who wants to make the claim that technology is net killing jobs has to be prepared to answer the question: why now? Technology has been killing (but not net killing) jobs for centuries. It's possible that technology could start to net kill jobs. But why now, when it hasn't in the past?

"Economics in One Lesson", chapter 7. Everyone should read that book http://www.fee.org/pdf/books/Economics_in_one_lesson.pdf

It says that jobs lost because of intoduction of labour saving machine are regained at later time thanks to increased demand caused by more efficient supply.

But what if we reached a point where one labour saving machine is replaced with even better labour saving machine before it had a chance to redeem lost jobs?

I anticipate transition of jobs and money toward trivial things. In 10 years John will cut hair of James for 1000$ and James will groom dog of John for 1000$. In the meantime theyll both enjoy nearly magical devices they bought for 10$ because they were made by robots.

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