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I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

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Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#191

Post by Zababa »

bythckr wrote: post #31
thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #2

>> In the beginning, Rust did have one sole patron: Mozilla. Everyone was uncomfortable with that arrangement, including Mozilla. >> We spent years trying to get away from this situation. It had tons of negative effects. >> Why are we regressing here? Amazon has an interest in using Rust to help build their software, probably for heavy use in AWS. Amazon also has a lot of money and talent that can help Rust continue…

What is the issue with Mozilla being the patron of Rust? They are managing the Firefox project well. Would it be better if Rust was a part of the Apache foundation?

I don't agree at all that they are managing the Firefox project well. See the evolution of Firefox's market share over the last decade.

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#192

Post by whoknew1122 »

fsociety wrote: post #190
whoknew1122 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Each org, team, and project has their own set of tenets. There are a few common sense tenets that are overarching (Security is priority 0), but there is no one set of 'AWS tenets.' Tenets are used as quick statements to validate decisions. And the tenants are always up for debate and revision. Using 'AWS tenets' isn't some nefarious way to control Rust. It's borrowing a useful (IMO) management/decision making s…

I disagree a lot. I don’t think using AWS Tenets was done nefariously.. but it has an important implication on the Rust community as a whole. Engineers are really relying on the Rust Foundation to do right by them, and by adopting Amazon or other big tech company principles it’s spitting in the face of engineers who don’t trust them and adding the potential for bias in decision making of the foundation. I’m hopeful t…

Again, Rust hasn't adopted Amazon's principals. It has adopted a mechanism used by Amazon by which it can define its own principles.

The tenets of the team I work on are stuff like 'treat every customer like your best friend on their worst day'. And 'learn something new every day'. They are tenets of a team in AWS, which makes them (to some extent) 'AWS tenets'.

Are they somehow nefarious because there are people who don't trust anything that remotely relates to Amazon? Or are they innocuous statements of intent that are applicable to most companies?

You don't have to like or trust Toyota to use Andon cords. You don't have to like or trust McKinsey to use the 7-S framework. You don't have to like or trust Motorola to use Six Sigma. You don't have to like or trust Amazon to use 'AWS tenets'.

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#193

Post by xdavidliu »

codesections wrote: post #75

The platinum members of the Rust Foundation are Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Mozilla, and Huawei. I'd pretty much prefer that none of those companies have any role in defining Rust – but, instead, they seem to be about the only ones who do.

genuinely curious, has there been any evidence in the past of large corporations decreasing the quality of programming languages that they have influence over?

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#195

Post by Zababa »

flohofwoe wrote: post #101
zozbot234 wrote: post #11

Hey, at least they didn't pick "move fast and break things" as a core principle. They're doing better than C/C++.

Rust is just getting started to see the same problems as C in the 80's (becoming successful enough that multiple competing compiler implementations emerged, which in turn required standardization). I think that the same will happen with Rust (but those can be good things, if it works more like the C committee and less like the C++ committee): first multiple competing implementations (like gccrs) will emerge, and once…

In the 80's there wasn't internet, which is a huge help to centralize power. For example, look at Python that got popular after internet was a thing: CPython IS Python. People tried alternatives, but popularity brings even more popularity. The same thing happened with Deno recently. Sure, maybe it has a bit of traction, but it's almost nothing compared to Node. It will be the same for Rust and alternative compilers: nobody will use them outside of a few people, that will deal themselves with the consequences.

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#196

Post by marricks »

secuthro22 wrote: post #175
marricks wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He called out specific things and had a tweet which was pretty vague about some bad behavior. If you want to focus on that and imply it's childish you are the one distracting from discussing more important issues. That's probably why takes like that get downvoted. --- From the comments Steve has made it sounds like Amazon effectively has control of Rust not only because of their large involvement but also because a s…

He said in his first tweet that he wants to have a "serious conversation", then goes on to list three grievances: that Amazon has a lot of involvement in Rust leadership, that Amazon "marginalized the core team" (but no details) and that Amazon "has done some other dirty shit" (but no details). That's two out of three grievances that have no substance whatsoever. You cannot have a serious conversation about these thi…

I think you bring up good points and I was wrong saying it was only slightly unclear.

I don’t fault him as he didn’t post it here but it is definitely not fully clear from reading it what’s going on.

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#198

Post by mjw1007 »

rst wrote: post #90
jdblair wrote: post #43

The facts are pretty thin here, but this seems to be the core tweet: https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1437441118745071617 To summarize: * Amazon has too much administrative influence * Amazon has marginalized the core team * also un-stated dirty tricks by Amazon I think rust is great, and I love with the rust community has accomplished, and I wouldn't want to see Amazon break that. But from this thread I don't…

Rust isn't the only community that's at risk of getting coopted by corporate sponsors. The PostgreSQL core team now has an explicit policy that no single company employs more than half its members -- but to follow it, last year, they had to expand membership (after companies employing 50% of the prior core team merged, and they didn't want to boot anyone). https://postgresql.fund/blog/is-it-time-to-modernize-postgre.…

The Python Software Foundation has also been addressing this issue recently.

This year they changed their bylaws to say that no more than a quarter of the directors may share an affiliation.

https://github.com/VanL/psf-bylaws/compare/9666a3a397c30fa7c...

(As far as I can make out, previously they just said that directors had to make their affiliation publicly known.)

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#200

Post by mleonhard »

Large organizations are full processes for balancing power between internal groups. As Rust Foundation, Amazon, and other companies become more involved, friction will happen more frequently. The Rust Foundation will need processes for balancing power between the companies and various groups inside the companies.

PR pieces are usually full of deception. I expect that Rust Foundation will end up with a process for approving Rust-related PR from supporting organizations. They will pay someone to do that work.

So far, Rust has been run by people who behave reasonably. I'm confident that they will resolve this issue. They will resolve it with open discussion, expressing and acknowledging different opinions and needs, explaining tradeoffs, and progressing steadily to consensus.

Here's a great talk by previous Rust head Ashley Williams about Rust's decision-making process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLstJFvdl4s&t=1808s

Some articles about it:

- http://aturon.github.io/tech/2018/05/25/listening-part-1/#th...

- http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2020/12/30/the-...

- https://rust-lang.github.io/rfcs/

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