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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#191

Post by nradov »

lamontcg wrote: post #183
nradov wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but it's unclear what community protection that provides. Vaccinated people can still get infected and spread the virus. They may be contagious for a shorter period on average but the magnitude is still unknown. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 Since the Delta variant is so contagious there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect the…

Vaccination almost certainly reduces transmission. https://www.timesofisrael.com/80-of-vaccinated-covid-carrier... RNA levels spike to the same levels on PCR, but they decline faster, and culturable amounts of virus are lower in breakthrough infections, indicating a higher proportion of viral debris in breakthrough infections rather than virus: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v... Even if y…

What is your scientific basis for betting that Prof. Pollard is incorrect? Even though vaccination likely reduces the risk of transmission, we have no evidence that even a very high level of vaccination would be sufficient to reduce R0 below 1.0. It's impossible to reach 100% coverage and even countries with high vaccination levels are still experiencing uncontrolled community spread. We can flatten the curve to an extent (useful for reducing impact on the healthcare system), but it's unlikely that we can significantly reduce the area under the curve.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#192

Post by xnx »

threatofrain wrote: post #73
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be fra…

Similar to drunk driving laws.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#194

Post by woodpanel »

betterunix2 wrote: post #157
spywaregorilla wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly it has become a political position. A progressive way of thinking about this move is to depoliticize it by making it the enforced norm because it's a stupid thing to politicize. A cynical view is that it'll force non conformers out. But its hardly novel to make government employees do politically slanted things. I'm sure a lot of government employees on the democrat or neutral side felt strong opposition to d…

COVID vaccination may have become a political position, but vaccination in general is not. Where are all the debates about MMR, hep-B, polio, etc.? We have required vaccinations in our children beginning in infancy for generations, and I am not hearing any governors or representatives saying that we must end the practice.

Each of these illnesses you state is multiple times more serious than covid. And each of their vaccines had the clear benefit of being an actual vaccine.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#195

Post by instaclay »

peteradio wrote: post #185
thatswrong0 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is exactly my point - we don't know what or how prevalent the long term effects of COVID are.

Agreed. But I guess I'm the odd-man out to err on the side of "not-fear".

> I'm the odd-man out to err on the side of "not-fear".

I'm not sure what this means. So you got the vaccine then because you're not afraid of it, right? Or you didn't get the vaccine because you're not afraid of COVID-19?

I am also not afraid really of COVID-19 but I got the vax because I'm also not afraid of that. Mostly I'm afraid I'd get it and then pass it to others where that could have been avoided by me just not being lazy for a second. I don't feel like an odd-man though.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#196

Post by HonestOp001 »

threatofrain wrote: post #73
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be fra…

No. Seat belt laws are put in place by car insurance industries. The states that do not have them have the insurance industry lean heavily on the legislature on how much money it will save each user. Then the commercials are run about how you do not want to see a person launched from their car and impaled on the power pole.

The populace is increasingly being treated as children and pretend adults in leadership. We will force you to wear a seat belt or else. Force you to take a vaccine, circumstances be damned. The ACLU prior to their destruction pre power grab warned us all about what is about to happen… more things will be forced upon us “for our own good.” We are about to have a purge of the government and never has a purge of a government gone well.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#197

Post by yupper32 »

giantg2 wrote: post #105
yupper32 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just a talking point coming from people who don't want to get the vaccination. Those people who don't want to get the vaccination largely exist because of misinformation, not because of any real risk (read: very very very very minimal risk) that comes with taking the Covid vaccine. Everyone (who can) should take the covid vaccine, regardless of their antibody status.

Isn't the vaccination rate of healthcare worker only about 60%? If the reasons are strictly misinformation, then it seems you have an almost 40% chance of getting an incompetent healthcare professional. In my mind, that suggests there are rational and reasonable reasons, since I find that more likely than 40% being blatantly incompetent.

Most groups of people are susceptible to misinformation. I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a bias among nurses, who know enough to be in the medical field, but use that confidence to overestimate their ability to make medical decisions like getting the Covid vaccine.

96% of doctors have gotten the vaccine. Top medical researchers in the immunology recommend the vaccine. etc. etc. These people are less (but not completely) susceptible to misinformation because they are truly able to interpret research and findings.

We should be following doctors and immunology medical researchers. Not nurses.

(This isn't meant to be an inherent slight on nurses, by the way. I think it's just human nature.)

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#198

Post by woodpanel »

bestcoder69 wrote: post #63
woodpanel wrote: post #15

Regardless of where you stand with this policy, you gotta give it some Kudos: It's a very efficient way to cleanse your entire bureaucracy of doubters. I can't think of another example where a democratic republic, which by definition includes a spectrum of opinions, has its whole bureaucratic hierarchy re-aligned with the ruling party's platform. Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic?

In Texas to be a public employee you must certify that you will not boycott Israel. This is an actual political position that’s disallowed. Under Biden’s change (correct me if I’m wrong), I can believe whatever I want about vaccines and say anything (so: have a political position)… as long as I get vaccinated (this is not a political position). Not to mention that both ruling parties at the top are urging all to get…

Funny.

Certifying to not boycott something is hardly comparable to have something injected into your body.

While with the latter your livlyhood dangles on an administered injection of a substance into your body (and probably regular boosters) any pledge to not do something in private is virtually un-enforcable and thus just lipservice.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#199

Post by bagels »

angelzen wrote: post #181
standardUser wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What point are you trying to make? And why do you think a link to a single study without explanation would prove any point whatsoever?

That according to CDC data 1/3 of vax people are going to develop an infection. There is no way to purge covid infections from the population, not even with 100% vax rate. In a population 67% vaccinated or higher, there are going to be more vax infections than unvax infections. At which point choosing to vax oneself or not is not going to keep covid from spreading and becomes a personal choice. If you are an adult, w…

Vaccines can bring the R number below 1 from above 1, which means that it really doesn't spread out of control anymore, and becomes much less common in the population.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#200

Post by swayvil »

betterunix2 wrote: post #55
woodpanel wrote: post #15

Regardless of where you stand with this policy, you gotta give it some Kudos: It's a very efficient way to cleanse your entire bureaucracy of doubters. I can't think of another example where a democratic republic, which by definition includes a spectrum of opinions, has its whole bureaucratic hierarchy re-aligned with the ruling party's platform. Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic?

Vaccination is not a political position. Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. A basic function of a government is to protect public safety, and that is what a vaccine mandate does.

By that argument you can sate your hunger by forcing me to eat a sandwich.
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