How The Hell Is This My Fault? • Hacker News Board

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#191

Post by NIL8 » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 3:51 PM UTC

Arrington and TC irritate the crap out of me! There was a time when I loved to read TC, but now they are so obnoxiously arrogant and dirty that it makes me cringe to see links from them in HN posts. Why would they drop Paul Graham's name into this empty story?

Can someone explain to me how this is anybody's fault other than the jerk that robbed the lady (and maybe the lady's naïveté)?

I know AirBnB has made a lot of people angry with their business tactics, but how are they responsible for this crime? Can you imagine if the Hampton Inn sued Expedia for someone vandalizing a hotel room or expecting restitution from Kayak for what a vandal did in their hotel?

AirBnB should listen to their lawyers and not accept responsibility for the act of a criminal or the poor judgement of a user.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#192

Post by jdh » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 3:57 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #164

cbs wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Paul is not just 'some AirBNB investor' I know we're posting on the HN temple of the YC church, so I always expect a little bit of fanboyism in attitudes towards PG, but you've really gone off the deep end if you think that in this situation Graham is anything but just another investor.

I've butted heads with PG more than most here and to call me a fanboy is really hilarious. Yes, PG is an investor (or, more accurately, YC is an investor), but I've seen enough of Paul to know that he's more than 'just another investor' and if it turns out I'm wrong about that I'll be most surprised, I have not seen any evidence to date that PG does wrong by anybody when he has all the facts. And that last bit is whe…

What does "more than just another investor" mean? Like everyone here, I'm a PG fan, but I don't know what's being implied.

It's okay to connect her to Paul because...

- he's smarter than a typical investor? - he's more involved than a typical investor? - he's more wise than a typical investor?

If anything, PG and YC are much less involved than a typical investor (VC) when the company is at this stage. No board seat (for starters. But also he's invested in 100+ companies over the last few years. The other VCs involved here focus all their time on the 3-5 investments they have made over this period.

So I guess I just don't see the point. As far as I can think, either you're saying he's different because he's way better, which may be true but not fair to assume all would know or agree (see the church/temple posts above), or because YC's investment model is different, which to me would be true but with the opposite implication.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#193

Post by thaumaturgy » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:00 PM UTC

felideon wrote: post #177

yycom wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I generally do what I think is right in life Jesus I wish these self-important fucks would stop bragging about how fucking great they are. Actually, just stop talking, all of you. Shut up, and do some fucking work.

While you sit back and watch the show? At least he's _trying_ to do something to help EJ[1] and has enough strut to take this up to pg. It's called compassion, not self righteousness. Also, take your language back to 4chan whence you came. [1] Other than offering pitty.

Call it whatever you like. I call it "interfering", without positive or negative connotation. When you interfere in a situation, with positive intentions, there are all kinds of things you have to consider:

1. The expectations of everyone involved. Does EJ have an expectation of privacy? Could she be expecting to keep her personal life, as much as possible, separate from the whole flap on the internet? Does AirBnB have an expectation of handling this without PG's assistance? Does PG have an expectation of not being dragged into a situation in which he could have involved himself if he so wished? (I think it's pretty clear at this point what my opinion of jacques' actions here is.)

2. All of the possible outcomes, and the likelihood of each one. Is it possible that tracking down someone's contact information -- using information gleaned from their blog -- will emotionally harm them in a situation that has already made them feel extremely vulnerable? Is it possible that there are currently unknown legal complications now, and that PG cannot become involved? Is it possible that attempting to involve him could make the situation even more complicated?

3. Whether or not the interference is even needed. Look, EJ has managed to get her story into the print edition of the Financial Times. It's spreading like wildfire online. I think it's very clear that she can handle herself. And, if AirBnB can't handle themselves, with all the money they recently raised and all of the resources they have at their disposal (monetary and advisory and otherwise), then they have no business being in business.

I've interfered in others' lives and situations on numerous occasions. I've seen the results of my actions go sideways. I've put more and more effort into understanding and considering a situation before leaping in. I've, finally, more recently, resolved to quit screwing around in other people's situations as much as possible.

Perhaps putting his internet detective skills to work only to let the woman know that her identity was at risk would have been a smart thing to do. Passing her contact information on to a third party -- regardless of who that party is or why -- without either her permission or that third party's permission, was a rookie mistake. It might have been well-meaning, but it was still a mistake.

The guy getting unfairly downvoted up above is exactly right: we should all be shutting the hell up and getting some fucking work done. (Myself included.)

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#194

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:05 PM UTC

jdh wrote: post #192

jacquesm wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've butted heads with PG more than most here and to call me a fanboy is really hilarious. Yes, PG is an investor (or, more accurately, YC is an investor), but I've seen enough of Paul to know that he's more than 'just another investor' and if it turns out I'm wrong about that I'll be most surprised, I have not seen any evidence to date that PG does wrong by anybody when he has all the facts. And that last bit is whe…

What does "more than just another investor" mean? Like everyone here, I'm a PG fan, but I don't know what's being implied. It's okay to connect her to Paul because... - he's smarter than a typical investor? - he's more involved than a typical investor? - he's more wise than a typical investor? If anything, PG and YC are much less involved than a typical investor (VC) when the company is at this stage. No board seat (…

[deleted]

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#195

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:06 PM UTC

jdh wrote: post #192

jacquesm wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've butted heads with PG more than most here and to call me a fanboy is really hilarious. Yes, PG is an investor (or, more accurately, YC is an investor), but I've seen enough of Paul to know that he's more than 'just another investor' and if it turns out I'm wrong about that I'll be most surprised, I have not seen any evidence to date that PG does wrong by anybody when he has all the facts. And that last bit is whe…

What does "more than just another investor" mean? Like everyone here, I'm a PG fan, but I don't know what's being implied. It's okay to connect her to Paul because... - he's smarter than a typical investor? - he's more involved than a typical investor? - he's more wise than a typical investor? If anything, PG and YC are much less involved than a typical investor (VC) when the company is at this stage. No board seat (…

> It's okay to connect her to Paul because...

Both EJ and Paul stand to gain from resolving this situation quickly and orderly.

And both could lose considerably if this is allowed to drag on much longer and/or hits the mainstream press.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#196

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:12 PM UTC

thaumaturgy wrote: post #193

felideon wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you sit back and watch the show? At least he's _trying_ to do something to help EJ[1] and has enough strut to take this up to pg. It's called compassion, not self righteousness. Also, take your language back to 4chan whence you came. [1] Other than offering pitty.

Call it whatever you like. I call it "interfering", without positive or negative connotation. When you interfere in a situation, with positive intentions, there are all kinds of things you have to consider: 1. The expectations of everyone involved. Does EJ have an expectation of privacy? Could she be expecting to keep her personal life, as much as possible, separate from the whole flap on the internet? Does AirBnB ha…

> Does PG have an expectation of not being dragged into a situation in which he could have involved himself if he so wished?

PG dragged himself in to it by standing up for AirBNB's actions in a public forum.

He probably should not have done that.

> Passing her contact information on to a third party -- regardless of who that party is or why -- without either her permission or that third party's permission, was a rookie mistake. It might have been well-meaning, but it was still a mistake.

Agreed, and I have apologized to her that I did not seek her consent first, based on the note I received afterwards it seems that she is ok with it, but that does not diminish my mistake and I should be more careful with stuff like that.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#197

Post by breck » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:22 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #154

Sounds to me like Paul Graham has made a fairly fundamental and common mistake, which is to say believing the AirBnb people when they reassure him that everything is under control and there's no fire here. Paul, if you actually read the statements made by the CEO on news.ycombinator.com, it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. I don't want to call Paul a liar, since it seems like…

> it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here.

No. Some terrible human being who should be in jail is at fault here.

Airbnb and YC are all run by great people. Responding to a crisis like this is never easy. Responding to your first crisis like this is hardest of all.

I wouldn't blame Michael Arrington at all, either. I think he's done a great job at reporting this. But it's not his first rodeo, for some of the other people involved it is, and so I'm not surprised they've made some mistakes.

Also, in regard to the so called "coverup", it's totally natural when someone says bad things about you on the internet to ask them to take them down. That's not a "cover up". That's "being human". Imagine if someone posted a diatribe against one of your children. As a parent, wouldn't you want to get that taken down? Airbnb is these guys' baby.

I grew up in a political family and all the time my father and my family would get slammed in the paper and online. I used to have a knee jerk reaction and email people asking them to take things down. It hurts when people say shit about you, especially if you haven't developed really think skin. EJ is a great writer, so it makes the post that much more stinging. It shouldn't be taken down, but we shouldn't imagine Airbnb's asking for it to be taken down some nefarious "coverup". It's only human.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#198

Post by ceejayoz » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:26 PM UTC

breck wrote: post #197

jellicle wrote: post #154

Sounds to me like Paul Graham has made a fairly fundamental and common mistake, which is to say believing the AirBnb people when they reassure him that everything is under control and there's no fire here. Paul, if you actually read the statements made by the CEO on news.ycombinator.com, it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. I don't want to call Paul a liar, since it seems like…

> it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. No. Some terrible human being who should be in jail is at fault here. Airbnb and YC are all run by great people. Responding to a crisis like this is never easy. Responding to your first crisis like this is hardest of all. I wouldn't blame Michael Arrington at all, either. I think he's done a great job at reporting this. But it's not his f…

> No. Some terrible human being who should be in jail is at fault here.

Not really, at least where the unfolding PR catastrophe is concerned.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#199

Post by mirkules » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:32 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #128

jcunningham wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as damage to the apartment, pictures with some proof would help (and would indicate the extent of the damage), and if the truth is to come out about the interaction with AirBNB then someone would have to dump their email cache. Visual proof has already been obtained by the police. Why does the victim have to provide photos to the general public? For that matter, why does she have to "dump her email cache"? Are…

> Are we putting her on trial on HN? Obviously not, maybe you should re-read that sentence in context. Pictures of the extent of the damage would go a long way towards explaining why she feels the way she does in a way that words will never be able to.

I agree with you, and I also think the reason it's been out of the mainstream media is because of lack of pictures. It's much more powerful to say (on the 10 o'clock news): "look what they did", instead of "let me describe to you what they did"

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#200

Post by ajays » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:36 PM UTC

niklas_a wrote: post #188

jacquesm wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She's had per personal space and privacy violated in a terrible way, and you're passing around her contact details? I passed her contact information to the one guy that I think can keep his head cool enough to solve this in a way that is beneficial to her. You may disagree with that but that's fine with me. > She mentioned in both blog posts that she is trying to keep her personal details private. Yes, and I helped…

That's not the right thing to do - it seems like you are just freaking her out more. A better way would have been to pass PG's details to her.

I disagree. Giving EJ PG's details, and putting the onus on the victim to reach out to PG, is (IMHO) the kind of attitude that got us here. I think this is what happened with AirBnB too: they probably gave her a number to call "if you need anything", and then just moved on.

The victim shouldn't have to go around knocking on doors to get help. Sometimes it's nice if the help comes to victim on its own volition.