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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#191

Post by angarg12 »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

You've tried remote and it doesn't work for you. Great, more power to you! However your comment about other people is out of place.

Is other people taking longer breaks affecting your productivity? If so, have you brought this up to them? Otherwise it shouldn't matter to you.

Personally I find remote a bliss, and I'm one of those. Almost every day I take 1 or 1:30 hours to cook some homemade meal and eat with my wife. When I feel extremely sleepy or tired in the early afternoon, I can take a quick nap and go back to work fresh and full of energy. I also take a break for exercising before my meetings in the late afternoon.

To a casual observer it might look like I'm taking breaks and working less, but actually I end up doing overtime many days. I just found a flexible schedule that works for me. Butting into other people's schedules is not so different from micromanagement.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#192

Post by Cookingboy »

velcii wrote: post #165
Cookingboy wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In fact, in technical discussion, not conveying too much emotion is a great advantage.. But I'd just like to remind you that even the most hardcore engineering company cannot possibly having only technical discussions. This really reminds me that how often HN miss the forest for the tree.

>But I'd just like to remind you that even the most hardcore engineering company cannot possibly having only technical discussions. Your point is not very clear, sorry. It seems that you have an emotional reaction to this topic, which seems to muddle your argument. May be take sometime to reflect and get back with more clarity?

>Your point is not very clear, sorry.

I honestly don't know how is my point not clear. Being able to have both face to face communication and technology based remote communication is better than being limited to the latter alone. I thought that was a pretty straight forward point.

I was simply reminding you that whatever advantage Slack/Email has over in-person communication for technical discussions, they lose that advantage for non-technical discussions, which are just as quintessential for an organization.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#193

Post by tomcooks »

kartikarti wrote: post #189
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

I fully agree with the social aspects, but the gym and food argument feels like a lack of self-discipline. Don't start your work if you are still in your underpants ! > Food is also big draw. Now I have to worry about what I eat every day and make my food. That's extra stress and cognitive pressure that is completely avoided when I get to just eat lunch from office's cafeteria. Just use money saved on the commute and…

Hot take: learn to cook

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#194

Post by hughrr »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

Conversely I do less work but generate more ROI at home.

I rather like worrying about food. I made myself jerk chicken and rice for lunch yesterday by taking ten minutes out to pop the chicken in the oven and then an hour out for lunch to do the rest.

During the chicken prep time I thought through a problem and solved it in half the time while the chicken was in.

This is a much better way to live than being time sliced into a corporate convenient canteen.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#195

Post by formerly_proven »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

Frankly, this sounds like you are an actual manchild.

> I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office

Just because you don't have any self discipline or work ethics doesn't mean everyone else has the same problem.

Just because you have no control in your life and need the structure of an office work day to get stuff done both at work and privately doesn't mean this is normal, or that it's a good - or even any kind - of argument to force everyone into the office.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#196

Post by makeitdouble »

midrus wrote: post #166
jasonkester wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro tip. They can only cut your pay if you let them. Or, rather, if we collectively let them. Make it clear that you won’t accept a pay cut for the same work output. And keep negotiating your full rate for any new position you take, and this won’t affect you at all. Personally, I always bill out at my Bay Area rate regardless of where I’m physically located (and I’ve been located in some pretty strange places). It ha…

Same salary despite where you are living is really unfair. I live in Italy and with a silicon valley salary here I'd be millionaire. It just won't work, companies would find equally qualified people for less money and long term we would all have to move to cheaper places.

It may look reasonable from your viewpoint, but imagine applying the same logic across the board: my parents are retired and get their pension from their former job in the city, but they moved to the country side. Should they get their pension slashed because living costs is now lower to them ?

Or try applying that at a micro level, and renegotiate your salary every time you move in a city because your rent has changed, or you finished paying your mortgage.

Your living costs shouldn't matter to your company or people who own you money in general.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#197

Post by iovrthoughtthis »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

it's good to know what you need so you can select for environments / help create environments that support you :).

i personally want local offices so i can have somewhere that isnt home to work without a commute. like a library for work. id hope i get to finally integrate into the local community a little better then too.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#198

Post by thirdlamp »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #24

I'd hate to go back to working in an office. I live in the countryside now and it's great. However I realise it may not always be so easy. So: - I'm self employed. Foreign companies aren't going to set up a branch office just to employ me. Purchasing my services however is easy. - I've niched down to a business vertical, and I'm starting to niche down more technically as well. No more "I'm a full stack developer with…

deel‘s employer of record program has been expanding to more countries quickly. Maybe check them out.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#199

Post by fabioborellini »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #172
midrus wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Food is also big draw. Now I have to worry about what I eat every day and make my food LOL

That does indeed sound like a trivial problem to solve. Pick a local restaurant and treat it as your new cafeteria. Come lunch time, go there. Ideally, your employer would compensate you for the office benefit you're missing (at least when talking about pandemic-induced forced WFH), but WFH is likely already saving you more money, so you can probably afford it anyway.

It's not that trivial to have a one-hour lunch break if the local restaurant is 30 minutes away, near by the closed office. In some countries the suburbs have very few services.

Also, if the subsidized commute costs 3 euros a day it is also not trivial to spend 14 euros for lunch.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#200

Post by TeMPOraL »

ozzythecat wrote: post #159
TeMPOraL wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So many cool ideas and new projects were the results of a casual lunch discussion even just random hallway chats. You can't duplicate that with Slack messages or scheduled Zoom meetings. Of course you can. You just have to allow it. Here's where "human nature" bites most management in the ass. What casual lunch discussion, random hallway chats, water cooler talks and after-hours beer have all in common is, people i…

> What casual lunch discussion, random hallway chats, water cooler talks and after-hours beer have all in common is, people involved are slacking off. > I find it ironic that companies want everyone to do spontaneous R&D work, but they rely on it happening spontaneously due to inefficiencies of office environment. I don’t think those conversations and lunches are slacking off. Connecting with people goes a long way t…

I feel you understand what I meant, so let's not get hung up on the exact word. I called this "slacking off" because it connotes "slack" as in a good thing to have in any system, and because if you (as a lowly IC) were trying to explicitly set up "hallway conversations" with your remote co-workers, your boss would tell you to stop the bullshit and get back to work.

But yes, you can view this as mental hygiene or morale management. Point is, being in the office gives plenty of opportunities to talk with random people about random things, with no strings attached. Most of hallway/watercooler talk isn't "learning about other projects and initiatives" - it's just random non-work-related talk, which absolutely helps build trust and new relationships, but isn't the "serendipity" the management is expecting. But you can't have one without the other - all those sparks of innovation happen when you let people just relax a bit, and talk about whatever they feel like.

My point thus being: it's not impossible to have this in remote setting. But because most companies are relying on "serendipity" as side effect of office inefficiencies that are missing in remote work, you have to explicitly add them back. Or, you can accept that you want actual R&D work to happen. Surprise surprise, R&D work involves... giving people a lot of leeway and little day-to-day pressure. I.e. slack.

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