Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

#191

Post by mm983 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

babyshake wrote: post #173

mm983 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is painful to read with the arrogant undertone while you don't actually know how CSAM scanning works. It's fuzzy hash, not ""AI"", based. Cloudflare uses it too, and last time i checked the web is still functional. https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/36004610611... How about we turn the tables and have the complainers suggest a solution. Because every single time an approach to targeted child porn t…

So this means it is checking if you are sharing known CP images? That does seem to be much less invasive and problematic as there is likely no good reason to be sharing these images.

Yes, that's exactly it. It uses a database compiled by NGOs and specialized firms comprising of file hashes matching child porn. These lists are handled by humans.

Fuzzy means that it takes compression and the like into account, because even if just one pixel out of 20 thousand is different, the hash is different too. Fuzzy hash still recognizes it as the same image, so using an algorithm to alter the color etc. won't work.

Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

#192

Post by shuckles » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #179

shuckles wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says Apple will have your phone generate safety vouchers for images you upload into iCloud, and when enough of those vouchers are for photos that match a government-supplied blacklist, they will access the photos you’ve given them. How is this worse than what Google Photos and Facebook already do?

You think Facebook and Google Photos should be the goal for privacy standards? You and I are practically in different universes then, philosophically. You're also being naive by swallowing the "it's only iCloud" justification. There is a clear intent to progress to scanning all local photos. After all, if photos must be match those of a government child abuse database, and any matches trigger manual review, what woul…

What advice would you give Apple if they’re faced with a legitimate government asking it to comply with the laws they have instituted in the society Apple wants to do business?

I don’t appreciate you calling me naive. There isn’t clear intent to scanning all local photos. In fact, it seems like the system was deliberately designed to only work with photos that are being uploaded to iCloud.

Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

#193

Post by BitwiseFool » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

mm983 wrote: post #161

cronix wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry, AI is very good at these things and never makes mistakes. It is so advanced it even understands nuance and complex communication mechanisms like sarcasm in text, even if it's only a single sentence to contrast! It will be able to know exactly the context of each image and it will affect only the sickos. We're also working on watching your face through the camera to see your true expression when viewing t…

This is painful to read with the arrogant undertone while you don't actually know how CSAM scanning works. It's fuzzy hash, not ""AI"", based. Cloudflare uses it too, and last time i checked the web is still functional. https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/36004610611... How about we turn the tables and have the complainers suggest a solution. Because every single time an approach to targeted child porn t…

>"have the complainers suggest a solution"

Being worried about privacy, establishing a precedent for scanning my data against a government database, and the risk of false positives with such an insanely emotionally charged crime is more than mere complaining.

The onus should not be on me to justify why this shouldn't be done. This is something new and it is perfectly fine to argue against it without needing to provide an alternative.

That being said, my solution is to continue to follow the process that law enforcement is currently using.

Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

#194

Post by shuckles » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #171

shuckles wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how every single cloud service has worked for a decade. You’ll need to elaborate on how, exactly, you believe it’s dystopian. The article is clearly wrong, because Apple cannot know which jurisdiction to forward a report to. That is NCMEC’s responsibility.

AWS doesn't do any automatic fingerprinting of files being uploaded to S3 and never has. The only time I've heard of anything like this was briefly when Microsoft was doing it, and I don't know if that was shutdown long ago due to outrage or not.

AWS doesn’t have to because the entity which writes those files is obligated to do this scanning if there is reason to believe the files contain CSAM.

Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

#195

Post by __blockcipher__ » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #167

shuckles wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://archive.is/https://www.ft.com/content/14440f81-d405-...

Thanks. The article confirms the title, this is not about content uploaded to the cloud: Apple’s system is less invasive in that the screening is done on the phone, and “only if there is a match is notification sent back to those searching”, said Alan Woodward, a computer security professor at the University of Surrey. “This decentralised approach is about the best approach you could adopt if you do go down this rout…

https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/14231090022805135... and https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/14231094582936289... kind of sums it up. Clearly there is an intent to progress to more than just what's been shared with iCloud. Otherwise there'd be no need for software on the devices themselves at all.

Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

#196

Post by shuckles » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #167

shuckles wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://archive.is/https://www.ft.com/content/14440f81-d405-...

Thanks. The article confirms the title, this is not about content uploaded to the cloud: Apple’s system is less invasive in that the screening is done on the phone, and “only if there is a match is notification sent back to those searching”, said Alan Woodward, a computer security professor at the University of Surrey. “This decentralised approach is about the best approach you could adopt if you do go down this rout…

> According to people briefed on the plans, every photo uploaded to iCloud in the US will be given a “safety voucher” saying whether it is suspect or not. Once a certain number of photos are marked as suspect, Apple will enable all the suspect photos to be decrypted and, if apparently illegal, passed on to the relevant authorities.

Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

#197

Post by fallingknife » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

mm983 wrote: post #161

cronix wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry, AI is very good at these things and never makes mistakes. It is so advanced it even understands nuance and complex communication mechanisms like sarcasm in text, even if it's only a single sentence to contrast! It will be able to know exactly the context of each image and it will affect only the sickos. We're also working on watching your face through the camera to see your true expression when viewing t…

This is painful to read with the arrogant undertone while you don't actually know how CSAM scanning works. It's fuzzy hash, not ""AI"", based. Cloudflare uses it too, and last time i checked the web is still functional. https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/36004610611... How about we turn the tables and have the complainers suggest a solution. Because every single time an approach to targeted child porn t…

> Child abusers evolve and are very happy if law enforcement doesn't.

Yes. And now they will evolve by developing a simple system to modify pixels in images when they copy and transmit that will easily defeat this hashing system. The only effect this will have is that moral panickers like you will have got everybody's privacy invaded over your moral panic of the day.

Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

#198

Post by jtbayly » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #131

imroot wrote: post #3

https://towardsdatascience.com/black-box-attacks-on-perceptu... I mean, who's to say that my hash is actually what they think it is... ...and if it's not uploaded to iCloud for someone to manually review what the image is, is that going to be enough to get a search warrant for my phone? "AUSA SOMEONE: But, Your Honor, The Defendant's phone has an image that matched a hash of a CSAM picture!" "DEFENDANT: I'm not going…

Fifth amendment holds that the state can't compel someone to give up their password.

But that hasn't stopped judges from demanding it and keeping people in jail for contempt of court when they refuse.

Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

#199

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

jtbayly wrote: post #138

1-6 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually do want a feature where I will get a notification on my phone if someone nearby has snagged a picture of me or my kids. A creepy shopper at Costco once took a pic of my 2-year-old. They pretended to be working up a conversation with my little kid meanwhile they had their phone at hip-level to snag a shot. I even confronted them about it. The Costco employees couldn't do a thing. Phones with cameras are use…

That's silly. You're in public. Your photo (and your kids') are being taken all the time.

Being on a security camera is very different from covertly photographing a kid from only a foot or two away. Why make such specious comparisons?

Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

#200

Post by BitwiseFool » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

thrill wrote: post #157

cm2187 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is how is it even constitutional in the US. Isn't it a warrant-less search? It's not like scanning content on a cloud. The cloud owns the device on which you store your data. But you own your mobile.

Not if you give permission, which you do by your purchase agreement.

You're correct, but I would love to see a TOS that gives Apple permission to exercise cruel and unusual punishment for violating their terms. The eighth amendment only applies to the government, after all! /s?