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Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

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Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually not true, you significantly underestimate the weight and space requirements of batteries necessary for long range EVs. There was just a comparison by heise.de of the Mercedes Eqa and GlA [1] and in comparison of space they write that the more EV the less space, i.e. ICE>PHEV>EV

> they write that the more EV the less space That's because the EQA is built on the same platform that GLA uses, which was designed for ICE vehicles.[1] The newer crop of electric vehicles that are built on dedicated platforms designed for EVs end up providing much more space than ICEs, mostly due to the ability to have the battery in a flat skateboard layout that is not possible with an ICE platform.[2] PHEVs end up…

There's no particular reason why PHEVs have to be worse than ICE for cargo space. The new Ford Maverick is designed as a hybrid first, for example. I know they don't have a PHEV version yet, but it's expected to come as one in a future model year.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#192
post #141
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've got some weird obsession with hydrogen.. even recently I've seen a lot of online advertising for their hydrogen vehicle the Mirai which is wildly impractical in the US and probably anywhere else.

It’s partly bc it would be much easier for Japan to become fully independent w/ hydrogen whereas with batteries they would be reliant on other countries to produce them. So the Japanese government prefers hydrogen.

I disagree. Hydrogen makes is it not easier to be fully independent. I would argue the opposite is more true.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. GM showed with a Volt that a PHEV could be effectively a BEV 90% of the time and perform excellently even when falling back into ICE mode, but the Prime came out after the Volt and its drivetrain is inferior in every way to it. I understand the Prime is roomier and so on, but in terms of drivetrain it's woefully inferior. As a Volt and Mitsu Outlander PHEV owner I obviously have nothing against the PHEV conc…

My ideal vehicle would be a Volt made by Toyota. I have several mechanic friends and all have warned me against buying any GM vehicle, especially one with as complex a drive system as a Volt.

The drivetrain in the Volt is exceedingly reliable. Like, 0 problems for most people. There's almost no maintenance required.

Other things in the car are the issue. Stupid things like the infamous "shift to park" issue (crappy $2 switch in the shifter mechanism so it doesn't recognize that you're in park even when you're mechanically in park and complains when you turn it off). Or just generally typically mediocre Chevy interior, etc.

Still love driving mine, I'd have a hard time giving it up. It somehow feels very sporty. I find Toyota's very boring to drive.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#194
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they write that the more EV the less space That's because the EQA is built on the same platform that GLA uses, which was designed for ICE vehicles.[1] The newer crop of electric vehicles that are built on dedicated platforms designed for EVs end up providing much more space than ICEs, mostly due to the ability to have the battery in a flat skateboard layout that is not possible with an ICE platform.[2] PHEVs end up…

There's no particular reason why PHEVs have to be worse than ICE for cargo space. The new Ford Maverick is designed as a hybrid first, for example. I know they don't have a PHEV version yet, but it's expected to come as one in a future model year.

[deleted]

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nissan e-power series is better - the gas engine only powers the electric motor which gives you a full-EV experience when driving. Hybrids need to start distancing themselves from the Prius and promote the insane 0-60 times that EVs are capable of now.

How is that better? The Volt was able to use the ICE to improve peak output directly, with fewer drivetrain losses. e-power is a cost saving measure, not an advancement

A problem with most approaches to having the ICE drive the wheels to is that you don't run the ICE at it's most efficient setting. You gain in the drivetrain, but lose in the actual combustion. Whether you lose more in one than you gain in the other is an issue.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#196
post #108

The Japanese car companies have done pretty poorly in the 2010's in supporting the energy transition. Toyota has been extremely slow to adapt after the Prius, which makes sense because of their ridiculously large volume of sales of basic, gas-efficient passenger vehicles. I give Toyota big props for the Prius, which was the original Green Vehicle 15-20 years ago, and still is a HUGE player in the efficiency space. II…

Toyota, Hyundai and Honda have all bet on H2. That's just as green, and electric as a Tesla. The tech works, refuels 10x faster than any battery based car, but so far no adoption outside of europe and asian countries. That's a phenomenal achievement. They chose wrong maybe, but they chose, and chose a path they though most viable. To claim they aren't in the game is beyond unfair.

> That's just as green

Complete nonsense. Most Hydrogen is produced with natural gas. And the conversion makes and end to end efficiency makes it actually far worse both economically and environmentally.

Maybe in some imaginary future that will not actually happen it is as green.

> refuels 10x faster than any battery based car

Waste overestimation and in reality even if that was true, you are gone spend 100x more times refueling then in an EV. Because EV you simply charge at home and 99% you not gone use any fuel-station.

And Hydrogen charging station still have many problems if you actually attempted to have a high volume of cars using them.

> They chose wrong maybe, but they chose, and chose a path they though most viable.

The path that would give them the most government subsidies and allow them to delay EVs as long as possible.

> To claim they aren't in the game is beyond unfair.

Go look at how many actually FCV have been sold.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#197
post #183
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally bought a new Chevy Bolt in April for $22k total ($20k financed).

Is this including some kind of tax credit or subsidy or did you actually manage to get them to come down like $8k below MSRP??

>Is this including some kind of tax credit or subsidy or did you actually manage to get them to come down like $8k below MSRP??

Chevy is doing an $8k consumer cash program right now to clear the lots because they literally cannot sell the things >$30k.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#198
The reality is that hydrogen cars are terrible for consumers. Typical price per kg of hydrogen (roughly the same energy as a gallon of gasoline) in California is like $15/kg (although you do get like 50-60 miles of range per kg). There are very few fueling stations, they are specialized (need special permits due to explosive nature of the fuel, like gasoline… plus you need a cryogenic cooler) and expensive (like $1-2million dollars apiece), rely on truck delivered fuel (on-site electrolysis is rare and generally much more expensive), and you’re limited to basically one state in the US. Industrial hydrogen is cheaper, but that’s partly because it’s OVERWHELMINGLY made by steam reforming of fossil fuels.

Hybrids are super easily coopted to just reinforce the status quo fossil fuel centric energy system. They’re somewhat more efficient, sure, but it’s an almost insultingly small improvement compared to BEVs and what we need to actually achieve. It would keep the same dynamic we have today where politicians are hesitant to include a carbon tax or increase fuel taxes.

So how about a compromise: every new vehicle sold must have a plug, be capable of traveling at highway speeds in pure electric, and a 40-50 mile electric range. Including hydrogen cars (which, after all, already are hybrid electric vehicles incorporating a significant lithium ion battery to provide peak power).

This would provide a natural consumer pull for electric vehicle charging infrastructure to be standard in places like apartments and houses and on street parking without hurting anyone’s current use case. It’s enough electric range so that vast majority of people could do it good 80% of the driving on pure electric. Even if you think everyone will have hydrogen cars, this reduces the number of hydrogen fueling stations needed by about a factor of 10. Major car manufacturers have been able to produce decent plug-in hybrids like this for a decade now. And it’s enough range that you could run the car purely electric if you had some reason that you had to do so, like in tunnels or city centers (although some mechanism to enforce this would be needed).

It also reduces the total amount of lithium batteries needed by a good factor of five compared to all-battery, which is important in the near term as we ramp up. And the extra 10-15kWh or so of battery is fairly trivial if you already have an electric powertrain (which HEVs and Hydrogen fuel cell cars do). At automotive volumes, that’s only an extra $1000-2000 or so of lithium ion cells and a vast reduction (>$10,000-20,000) in operating costs over the entire vehicle’s lifespan. (And actually, fuel cells have a limited lifespan, worse than large battery EVs, so making them plug in hybrids would stretch that significantly.)

I just don’t trust Toyota on this. Non-plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars just aren’t sufficient or low cost enough to operate.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#199
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this including some kind of tax credit or subsidy or did you actually manage to get them to come down like $8k below MSRP??

>Is this including some kind of tax credit or subsidy or did you actually manage to get them to come down like $8k below MSRP?? Chevy is doing an $8k consumer cash program right now to clear the lots because they literally cannot sell the things >$30k.

Damn if I’d known about that I would have bought one instead of getting a Camry last month

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#200
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mirai is 196 inches long (same as a Model S or BMW 5 series) yet has less than 10 cu ft of trunk space. The volume required to fit all the hydrogen fuel cell components is massive . It's not especially practical as a result. Even if there was a refueling network, it's not like you're going to take it camping or road trip with such a small trunk, and for an around town grocery runner it's on the large side. It's n…

Most hydrogen isn't from electrolysis of water. It's mostly made commercially from natural gas.

Right, yes, sorry I meant no potential green sources of hydrogen that don't come from electrolysis.
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