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WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

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Re: WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are communist party members. Not Board members of businesses... That number includes anyone from a high school kids to Taxi Drivers. Are you suggesting that High school kids and taxi drivers would be effective board members?

I am not suggesting but saying that the CCP has a pool of members to tap into and is able to force companies to make them members of their board. Junior members will grow older, can be board member of small companies in the countryside in the beginning, then evolve as they grow. Older members can be board members of 10+ Big companies.

There are 26 million (official) companies in china. Just to orchestrate such a thing would require an entire department/ministry... could you point out which part of the chinese government apparatus that is?

This is just the normal Chinese gov control everything narrative that people who've basically not spent a lot of time in china tell themselves for whatever reasons.

CCP preserves CCPs power. That's its main focus, it controls what it needs to, to do that. Which it achieves by controlling just the top tier business like 10-20 of them. The other 25,999,980 businesses would likely never hear anything from the CCP in any meaningful way.

This is not dissimilar to how government has fairly significant influence over Amazon/Apple/Facebook etc in the US.

Note: I'm not defending CCP here, they do stupid/bad stuff but controlling every single business is not one of them.

Re: WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not suggesting but saying that the CCP has a pool of members to tap into and is able to force companies to make them members of their board. Junior members will grow older, can be board member of small companies in the countryside in the beginning, then evolve as they grow. Older members can be board members of 10+ Big companies.

There are 26 million (official) companies in china. Just to orchestrate such a thing would require an entire department/ministry... could you point out which part of the chinese government apparatus that is? This is just the normal Chinese gov control everything narrative that people who've basically not spent a lot of time in china tell themselves for whatever reasons. CCP preserves CCPs power. That's its main focus…

"The party’s efforts to place itself inside private companies have been, according to its own figures, very successful. One recent survey by the Central Organisation Department, the party’s personnel body, found that 68% of China’s private companies had party bodies by 2016, and 70% of foreign enterprises. Although these figures sound high, they don’t match the targets the party has set for itself. In Xi’s old stamping ground of Zhejiang, for example, officials set a target in August 2018 to have cells inside 95% of private businesses. There was a need, the survey said, to retain the revolutionary spirit inside the companies as their ownership was handed on to the next generation."[0]

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business...

Re: WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 26 million (official) companies in china. Just to orchestrate such a thing would require an entire department/ministry... could you point out which part of the chinese government apparatus that is? This is just the normal Chinese gov control everything narrative that people who've basically not spent a lot of time in china tell themselves for whatever reasons. CCP preserves CCPs power. That's its main focus…

"The party’s efforts to place itself inside private companies have been, according to its own figures, very successful. One recent survey by the Central Organisation Department, the party’s personnel body, found that 68% of China’s private companies had party bodies by 2016, and 70% of foreign enterprises. Although these figures sound high, they don’t match the targets the party has set for itself. In Xi’s old stampi…

Using western propaganda to strengthen a western propaganda point.

There are lots of communist party members in lots of organisations. Just like there are lots of republicans in organisations.

But the premise that you are trying to support is: ccp “controls” all the companies. Not: ccp membership can be found in lots of companies.

Re: WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

#194
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulators should pay absolutely zero attention to stock market. If the stock price crashes, it's because the company's value was derived from the exploitation and abuse that regulations are supposed to prevent. They were never supposed to be that valuable in the first place. Regulations should cause as much damage to stock price as possible. We should measure the effectiveness of regulations by how much they tank th…

I think you're saying the purpose of regulations should be to hurt the stock price of companies. That's seriously crazy. Why not write a regulation simply outlawing public stock markets? The purpose of regulations are to make people's lives better. That could mean protecting them from harms, or preventing other undesirable outcomes. There should be a cost benefit analysis applied there. Of course some things are hard…

I'm saying regulation is likely to be ineffective if it doesn't hurt stock prices.

Re: WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The party’s efforts to place itself inside private companies have been, according to its own figures, very successful. One recent survey by the Central Organisation Department, the party’s personnel body, found that 68% of China’s private companies had party bodies by 2016, and 70% of foreign enterprises. Although these figures sound high, they don’t match the targets the party has set for itself. In Xi’s old stampi…

Using western propaganda to strengthen a western propaganda point. There are lots of communist party members in lots of organisations. Just like there are lots of republicans in organisations. But the premise that you are trying to support is: ccp “controls” all the companies. Not: ccp membership can be found in lots of companies.

“For us small businesses, we have no choice but to follow the party,” says Li Jun, a 50-year-old owner of a fish-farming business in the eastern Jiangsu province. “Even so, we’re not benefiting at all from government policies.” [0]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-xi-clampdown-private-sect...

Re: WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using western propaganda to strengthen a western propaganda point. There are lots of communist party members in lots of organisations. Just like there are lots of republicans in organisations. But the premise that you are trying to support is: ccp “controls” all the companies. Not: ccp membership can be found in lots of companies.

“For us small businesses, we have no choice but to follow the party,” says Li Jun, a 50-year-old owner of a fish-farming business in the eastern Jiangsu province. “Even so, we’re not benefiting at all from government policies.” [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-xi-clampdown-private-sect...

You are now referring to regulation. Not direct party influence of companies. This is the same as Californian companies complaining they have to follow strict environmental regulations: we have no choice.

Keep the strawmen coming.

Re: WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

#197
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>polling in totalitarian society does not make sense Why? There's tons rigorous analysis by western institutions with decades history polling in PRC [1]. The allegations that you can't get useful polling because communism is facile. There's no basis to it other than projection and feels. It's common among East Europeans who abscribe their experiences on PRCs, which is very different. Unlike Soviet Block countries dur…

> There's no basis to it other than projection and feels. The basis is that the authorities can lock you up if you dissent. You have no right to free expression and no chance for a fair trial. You know this and will deny it happens. I am not saying that for example HK polls are biased pre-NSL (they are because smart people knew what is coming 2047 or sooner), I am fully aware that half the people will support any gov…

Your assertion was that:

> makes it even harder to believe any positive opinions.

Despite acknowledging that conventionally ~50% of the population are pro government. Ergo statistically there are genuine positive opinions, many in fact. On the mainland or in the west, this is magnified by the PRC population / diaspora scale. So why calibrate your belief meter so unevenly as to reject any positive opinions except dogma / feelings when statistically they are bound to exist in massive numbers.

> The basis is that the authorities can lock you up if you dissent. You have no right to free expression and no chance for a fair trial. You know this and will deny it happens. ... >It simply does not matter.

None of that matters to genuineness of positive opinions. Self-censorship doesn't translate negative opinions into positive ones, it turns them into silence or contrition. Dissidents who get swept up don't do a 180 and enthusiastically praise CCP, they stay quiet or do boiler apologies and acknowledge being "wrong". In PRC: many people voice their negative opinions in a variety of forums because the chances of being locked up with "picking quarrels and provoking trouble" is stupendously small. Creative critiques that circumvent censorship are everywhere, posts get deleted, particularly troublesome agitators get invited for tea, repeat multiple times before state security commits resources. No one denies self-censorship or persecution happens, it just doesn't happen on a pervasive enough scale to meaningfully collapse public opinion where the default assumption should be positive opinions are not believable. You can argue negative opinions are suppressed, and positive amplified, but that doesn't make positive any less likely to be genuine. Indeed one would expect more genuine opinions by virtue of pervasive propaganda. In the west you have manufactured consent forming genuine anti-China opinions, and Chinese diaspora who self-censor due to stigma and social pressure, but self-censoring of pro-China opinions doesn't make pervasive anti-China opinions less genuine.

>That also happened in Eastern Europe

The comment was addressing the history/state of mainland polling, Eastern Europe during the cold war was absolutely not home to a plethora of western NGOs that operated with relatively loose oversight. PRC was, hence decade+ of western institutions surveying PRC before internal security modernized to the point of having tenable grasp on public opinion. Reason why this was even allowed in the first place is CCP wasn't in position to trust its own data and relied on western data / expertise for development.

>covertly to manipulate

US allocating 300s million to anti-China influence operations doesn't mean we discount genuineness of anti-China opinions formulated by western propaganda. One can suggest brainwashed useful idiots are being misinformed, but doesn't mean they don't genuinely believe the propaganda. This applies to Chinese propaganda as well. Lots of useful idiots genuinely support the PRC narrative, but on balance one can argue the Chinese exposed to both east + west are in a better position to make a more informed decision. PRC diasphora who understands state propaganda is witnessing how manufactured consent can porduce equally brainwashed populous via cover manipulation is something I'd hope someone who escaped east europe can identify.

Re: WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wrote elsewhere in this thread that this alleged "Chinese propaganda offensive" especially on western social media is massively overblown. In terms of data, we have decades of western analysis of polling and sentiments in PRC suggesting people are genuinely supportive of central government, reflected in opinions of millions of Chinese diasphora populations who post on western media and/or interact regularly with…

Warning: account associated with CCP

We've banned this account. It's a pity, because you've posted good HN comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26978491 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27176286, but vandalizing the site like this after we specifically asked you not to is seriously not ok.

Re: WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

#199
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warning: account associated with CCP

We've banned this account. It's a pity, because you've posted good HN comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26978491 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27176286 , but vandalizing the site like this after we specifically asked you not to is seriously not ok.

Maybe you could try to do something with the Chinese trolls too? It's becoming a serious problem.

Re: WeChat suspends new user registration for security compliance

#200
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no basis to it other than projection and feels. The basis is that the authorities can lock you up if you dissent. You have no right to free expression and no chance for a fair trial. You know this and will deny it happens. I am not saying that for example HK polls are biased pre-NSL (they are because smart people knew what is coming 2047 or sooner), I am fully aware that half the people will support any gov…

Your assertion was that: > makes it even harder to believe any positive opinions. Despite acknowledging that conventionally ~50% of the population are pro government. Ergo statistically there are genuine positive opinions, many in fact. On the mainland or in the west, this is magnified by the PRC population / diaspora scale. So why calibrate your belief meter so unevenly as to reject any positive opinions except dogm…

> So why calibrate your belief meter so unevenly as to reject any positive opinions

Because negative opinions can get you locked up or worse.

> Self-censorship doesn't translate negative opinions into positive ones

In this case you are again simply wrong. It was again quite common in EE from my experience to say something quite positive if one was invited to opine, even if it was a complete lie and fabrication, just to be saved from trouble. And why not? For some people it is easier to say something than to say nothing. Or even staying quiet or not being enthusiastic enough can be understood as dissent. And all that is before we even start to talk about so-called internal enemies, witchhunts so popular in "communist" parties and organizations.

> No one denies self-censorship or persecution happens, it just doesn't happen on a pervasive enough scale to meaningfully collapse public opinion

There is no public opinion. There is only the opinion of the CCP. To have a public opinion would first need to have a public discussion in which various opinions are freely floated, which is not possible.

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