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Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

newyorker.com

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Re: Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

#191
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air travel is generally more energy efficient than trains, beyond a 300-400 mile range, depending on what you're traveling over/through. Track and right-of-way is a scarce resource with large amounts of embedded energy. The sky, not so much.

The key point, though, is that there should be no easy way for individuals to travel beyond 3-400 miles. It simply is not possible, today or in the foreseeable future, to travel this far without outsized environmental impacts.

But...FREEDOM!

Re: Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in a plane trip you have 3 lost hours before it starts and after it ends, so a normal train, running at 130km/h will be faster than a plane at 850km/h for any trip of less than ~460km. If you make it a fast train, at 350km/h, it will beat the plane on any trip up to 1700km. Most trips are short, so no, most trips can be done by train and people still spend less time on them than by plane.

I live in Southern California, with family in Kansas, Wisconsin, and New York. The closest one is 2500kms away. The longest is almost 5000kms A train would take a lot longer than a plane. Even more than just the distance, though, is the fact that there would be no practical way to have direct rail lines to every major city in the US. Trains are useful, but there is no way they could replace air travel in the US.

/me hypes the loop...

Re: Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I live in Southern California, with family in Kansas, Wisconsin, and New York. The closest one is 2500kms away. The longest is almost 5000kms A train would take a lot longer than a plane. Perhaps people/families have spread themselves all over the continent because in the past energy has been 'too cheap' (i.e., didn't price in externalities). With carbon pricing people may make different decisions in how far they w…

Travel is extremely economically important, especially for the poor. Living in a poor, rural county with poor schools and few jobs can really mess things up. Someone I know is getting divorced. She was a very high earner who moved to a low-cost of living, low wage area to be with her husbands family. She had previously earned very high wages, but took a significant pay cut to live with in-laws. As the divorce is conc…

Why? Building a community, grass roots style, on the net...fight the right. Righten the flight. Show where to go with flow. Make it glow...

Re: Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tonnels, we are made massive ones through the alps in europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel

Gotthard is impressive, but it took the Swiss 17 years to build it. Nearby, Brenner Base Tunnel is under construction between Italy and Austria, and it is expected to take 25 years to complete. I can't imagine how long would it take to tunnel through the Rockies. Look at the map, they are far wider than the Alps. Getting through the Rockies is like getting from Denmark to Croatia.

Use the Army Corps of Engineers, Navy Sea Bees, something like that. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seikan_Tunnel going between islands under the Japan Seas in an earthquake area.

Think BIGGRRRR! (Aggressively so, instead of sissying around!)

edit: also not to forget about 'Nuclear Tunnel Boring Machines/Subterrene' https://havacuppahemlock1.blogspot.com/2015/06/nuclear-power...

cf. "Trans-Planetary Subway Systems

A Burgeoning Capability

by Robert M. Salter

February 1978"

https://www.rand.org/pubs/papers/P6092.html

Re: Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Travel is extremely economically important, especially for the poor. "Travel" or "movement"? I am the first generation to be born in the country I live in. When my (grand)parents left, they left under the assumption that there would be no, or maybe very little, chance of going back to the Old Country. They took a boat over the course of many weeks to traverse an ocean; an era before cheap air travel. When people mo…

Unless you can move your entire family, then movement implies travel at least twice a year in the US.

> […] then movement implies travel at least twice a year in the US.

Under the current regime of 'cheap' travel in which the externalities of climate change are probably not taken into account.

Re: Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

#196
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What happens to the vehicle when a major failure happens at high speed? What about sudden pressure loss at high altitude? Or mechanical failure… The same thing that happens in any other plane. > … or weather which causes a diversion (how much ground do you cover just turning around?). This is an extremely weird concern. There’s so much wrong with it I’m not even sure where to start: planes can slow down, sharp turn…

> The same thing that happens in any other plane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_structural_fa... The faster you are traveling (which really matters as a factor of the drag you are experiencing), the more serious any event is which changes the shape of your vehicle. Even non structural failures, such as an engine cowling coming off mid-flight can strike other parts of the aircraft, resulting in damage…

> The faster you are traveling (which really matters as a factor of the drag you are experiencing), the more serious any event is which changes the shape of your vehicle. Even non structural failures, such as an engine cowling coming off mid-flight can strike other parts of the aircraft, resulting in damage and changes to the structure.

Yes, an engine falling off will be more impactful to a plane traveling at supersonic speeds. But these types of incidents are an extremely minor fraction of overall failures, and particularly during cruise at altitude (e.g., when the risk of bird strikes is minimal).

Engineering steps can be taken to minimize risks like this further since the consequences of failure are higher.

> Commercial aircraft are just impractical to operate safely at such high speeds.

This argument was made when the first jetliners were being rolled out too. It carries about as much weight now as it did then.

> Faster, heavier aircraft need longer runways to land. That limits your alternate landing choices. Diversions may cost you more fuel since they may be much greater distances away.

This hasn't stopped faster, heavier aircraft from becoming commercial successes so far.

A diversion is already extremely expensive for a myriad of reasons. Schedules, aircrew, and sometimes planes have to be shuffled around. Stranded passengers often need accommodation and/or alternative transport arranged. Airfare credits are often handed out. Incurring slightly higher fuel costs from having to divert a bit farther is just not that significant of a factor here, and one that is easily compensated for by adjusting ticket prices.

Bumping the cost of an uncommon, already-expensive event by a few percentage points just doesn't move the needle much.

> And you cannot simply make a "sharp turn" at high speed. Your passengers (and the airframe on a large craft) are not prepared for 4G turns. They aren't even designed for 2G turns.

That's my point. Nobody is making sharp turns in airliners anyway. Routes are determined with weather accounted for in advance, and if a diversion around unplanned weather mid-flight is needed, airliners make long, sweeping turns to avoid it already.

Re: Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

#197
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t lose 6 hours on a typical airline trip. Domestic, I tend to arrive around an hour before gate close time. International from the US, about 90 minutes. For a train, I’d still plan on a 30 minute safety buffer (to protect against en route delays to the station). Add another 30 minutes over the train for boarding, push, and taxi. So, I’m probably giving up an hour plus/minus however closer the train station is v…

Of course it depends, but train stations tend to be in the center of a city, so you start from the center of A and arrive to the center of B. With planes, airports are way off the city centre, I think that there are few airports (here in Europe) serving large cities that can be reached in less than 1 hour from the city centre, and that applies to both A and B, to this you add, unless you use a private means of transp…

Uhm, arriving about 9:00AM at Hamburg Airport

[1] https://openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=11&lat=53.61524&lon...

visiting

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_Messe_und_Congress

you'd take

[3] https://geofox.hvv.de/jsf/home.seam?execute=true&date=05.07....

I see no problem here.

(edit: WHAT?)

Re: Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

#198
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in a plane trip you have 3 lost hours before it starts and after it ends, so a normal train, running at 130km/h will be faster than a plane at 850km/h for any trip of less than ~460km. If you make it a fast train, at 350km/h, it will beat the plane on any trip up to 1700km. Most trips are short, so no, most trips can be done by train and people still spend less time on them than by plane.

Yes, and for longer trips, besides the high speed trains, there are (were) also night trains, but for some reasons most of them were canceled (and/or the prices became less and less competitive), an old thread about this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19557848 Maybe they will start to organize a few more of these trains, the level of stress was so much lower on (overnight) trains when compared to planes when m…

That trend of canceling them seems to be in reversal, at least a bit. https://www.nightjet.com/en/reiseziele

Re: Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

#199

I hope not mainly because where I live in south-eastern Canada we seem to be the tailpipe of North America. All aircraft heading east seem to go over my region. The summer in non-pandemic times) is a constant parade of large passenger jets flying over. The jets are high up and in the evening you hear the rumble as the aircraft highlighted by the sun fly over while the ground is in evening shadows. Even a dozen US mil…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Tracks

Re: Will we ever fly supersonically over land?

#200

I hope not mainly because where I live in south-eastern Canada we seem to be the tailpipe of North America. All aircraft heading east seem to go over my region. The summer in non-pandemic times) is a constant parade of large passenger jets flying over. The jets are high up and in the evening you hear the rumble as the aircraft highlighted by the sun fly over while the ground is in evening shadows. Even a dozen US mil…

Do you live in Nova Scotia or New Brunswick? That seems to be where flights from NE USA to Europe fly over generally. That said they should be at cruising altitude by there. If you can hear them at 36k feet, it must be fairly quiet where you live! I live close to the path of the Heathrow approach, and planes tend to fly over me at about 5k feet, and I have to say that it's pretty rare I even hear them.

Fortunately there are no night flights to and from the airport here. Nonetheless, depending on weather I can hear them, mostly from/to Paris, France from/to many destinations in Asia, mostly China. They all cross over here, apparently.
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