Live data from Hacker News

Link rot and content drift are endemic to the web

theatlantic.com

191–200 of 220 posts

Re: Link rot and content drift are endemic to the web

#191
post #69
post #63

It's amazing how little some trusted institutions care about this. For example, the BBC has been bragging about how many people rely on their coverage of the pandemic, but have an obnoxious habit of repeatedly overwriting old articles with new ones on similar topics and not keeping the old versions available. The history of a once-in-a-century pandemic with huge local and global impacts is literally being overwritten…

On the bright side, using a tool like Internet archive it should be easy to filter out which articles were removed and/or edited by the BBC, in a way highlighting the most historically important articles.

This works for major sites like BBC. For minor, local news sites, it doesn't because they don't get archived at all (atleast not fully and in time).

news sites should really be mandated to keep previous versions of their newsstories with all the edits, especially the ones paid by taxes.

Re: Link rot and content drift are endemic to the web

#192

I think the publishing media that predate the web all had the same problem; posters get torn down, newspapers burn, even stone carvings weather. Hardly a new, or possibly even unnecessary phenomenon.

The problem is, that previously, if you wrote a book about a poster, you put the photo of the poster directly in your book, and the reader could see the poster there.

Now you write an article about a poster, and instead of a photo, there is an embedded instagram photo from the artist, who then removed their account, and the content is missing. Or a hotlink to the authors website, and it's missing there too.

Yes, if the book was destroyed too, all info about the poster was lost, but atleast the book didn't say "go to the corner of X and Y street, and hope it wasn't removed or destroyed by the weather".

Re: Link rot and content drift are endemic to the web

#193
A common misapprehension, even amongst those who have been engaged at foundationally-deep levels of the Web, is that the World Wide Web is not an archival mechanism but a publishing mechanism.

More specifically, it's an on-demand publishing mechanism, relating to media-based publishing (books, records, physical video media) much in the same was as the electrical grid (a transmission mechanism) does to fuels (a storage function).

It would be nice (in at least some regards) if publishing content at a specific addressable URL were a promise to 1) eternally provide that resource and 2) never change it. But there's no way to guarantee that this will be the case.

In the past, the means for achieving archival of information was:

- To specifically record that information in some form. As with, say, Plato's memorialising of Socrates's dialgogues.

- To create multiple copies of those recordings, so that loss of any one instance doesn't mean total loss.

- To define a refererencing or indexing system such that individual works can be identified unambiguously. (Or more specifically, with an acceptable level of ambiguity.)

- To develop a means of agreement as to what the canonical or recongised version of a work is, or absent that, of identifying more canonical forms or lineages. (The historiography of the history of philosophy is an interesting sub-field, with a good introductory treatment in Peter Adamson's History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps podcast.)

URLs of and by themselves address these needs poorly. At best they point to a location at which a document may have been available at a point in time. A URL plus a time-range (which is what the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine effectively delivers) is a much better approximation to what is needed. (The notion of time-bounded identifiers generally seems a useful one, as might be applied also to domain and user names, for example.)

As I see it, the goal of the archival web needs to address a number of points which Zittrain addresses only very indirectly:

- Identification of what really should be archived. Right To Be Forgotten exists for very well-founded reasons, and a world without forgetting (or with very capricious forgetting) is one form of hell.

- True document-centric identification. I've been thinking about this for a while (recent discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27455520), and something that is based on the actual contents while being resilient to mild changes seems most optimal. Checksums, not so much, tuples or ngrams, possibly warmer.

- A number of archival institutions. The Internet Archive is certainly amongst these. Other libraries, if at all possible spread across multiple institutions and jurisdictions would be preferable. IA have been working with numerous academic institutions and the US Library of Congress, though IA itself still carries most of the burden.

This isn't a new problem. In particular, each time there's been an explosion in some new form of publishing, there's been a scramble by archivists to keep up. Denis Diderot, 18th century encyclopaedist, has an awesome quote about the information explosion drowning his own generation (the encyclopaedia was his technical solution to that problem).[1] Numerous elements of what we now accept as standard bibliographic elements (titles, authors, tables of contents, indices, references, citations, page numbers, paragraphs, inter-word spaces, ...) were invented to answer specific needs, not always of archivists as a principle focus, though often providing benefits to them. Cataloguing and classification systems likewise.

I appreciate Zittrain's message. He's crying over a lost cause and looking backwards, not to the future.

________________________________

Notes:

1. Diderot: https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=2877

Re: Link rot and content drift are endemic to the web

#194

By the way, the technical side of this is very interesting. If you look at the tools mentioned (the wayback machine, but also perma.cc and other archival solutions), almost all of them rely on a single semi-modern tech stack that produces WARCs (web archives - ISO - ISO 28500:2017 https://iipc.github.io/warc-specifications/specifications/wa... ). The main crawler still seems to be heritrix3 ( https://github.com/inter…

WARC is genuine genius, and a very real and valuable contribution in large part of the Internet Archive.

Re: Link rot and content drift are endemic to the web

#195

Hashes are the answer. How they get implemented in solving this problem is the question

What specifically do you hash?

How do you hash content which is programmatically determined and changes on every page load?

How do you account for the same work in multiple versions, translations, or updates, strictly using hashes?

(Note that a chained hash, e.g., a git history, is not a strict use of hashes, though it most definitely does use hashes.)

Re: Link rot and content drift are endemic to the web

#197

I think the publishing media that predate the web all had the same problem; posters get torn down, newspapers burn, even stone carvings weather. Hardly a new, or possibly even unnecessary phenomenon.

The problem is, that previously, if you wrote a book about a poster, you put the photo of the poster directly in your book, and the reader could see the poster there. Now you write an article about a poster, and instead of a photo, there is an embedded instagram photo from the artist, who then removed their account, and the content is missing. Or a hotlink to the authors website, and it's missing there too. Yes, if t…

Note that a chief impediment here is copyright rather than the ability to reference an extant work.

A photo of an inscription is not the same as the inscription itself --- detail is lost in any translation.

For digital works, it is possible to faithfully reconstruct an original with full fidelity (if necessary, embed an emulated environment of the host, server, or network originally provisioning the work). But copyright claims make this a legal suicide maneuver, at least for any entity capable of being sued, or being sued effectively.

Note that numerous previous archivists have in fact been pirates or copyists, sometines under pre- or non-copyright regimes, but very often in direct rejection of copyright.

Re: Link rot and content drift are endemic to the web

#198
post #86
post #84

The whole architecture of the internet is inside out. People have become numb to the insanity of encountering null pointers multiple times per day. This is understandable since the inside out structure is what allowed the web to grow quickly, but it will also be what ultimately dooms it as a real lasting store for knowledge. The problem is that the foundations are shifting sands, and we need something that has signif…

We should have kept developing Usenet. Handing control over to web browser providers was a mistake.

Usenet died because reasons. It had met its effective maximum scale by the early-to-mid 1990s, at a millionfold less use than today's largest Web platforms see.

Re: Link rot and content drift are endemic to the web

#199

I doubt people will ever care about this enough for it to have momentum, but there are well known technological solutions: content addressable file storage. If you do that the url is always tied to the file content itself. Of course this requires documents to actually be documents. So I don't think it works for any modern business model.

Do you have any suggested reading on content-addressable file storage?

Re: Link rot and content drift are endemic to the web

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WARC can record and replay single-page apps, but it struggles with knowing where a "page" begins and ends. There was a time when I was furious with the web going to hell and I investigated the possibility of "web without browsers" that started with making a WARC capture of page and putting pages through extensive filtering and classification before the user sees anything. With interactive capturing you can push a but…

I, too, was fascinated by a "web without browsers" (or with other kinds of browsers, really) until i stepped into the community and realized that community was a proto-nazi cesspit full of misogynistic attitudes. Maybe now that times have passed, people have died who posthumously admitted their preferences for white supremacy (and heavily bitcoin-supported that), and whole projects have been renamed, there can be a m…

I had this idea too. Wrote some code to scrape data from my school's badly designed website and it significantly improved my quality of life. Really made me think. What if we had a huge library of scrapers for every single website out there? We could build custom clients and have full control over everything. If people can maintain absurdly huge adblocking databases, surely something like this would also be possible.

Nice to know about Weboob. No idea what the community was like but it's nice to know I'm not insane for thinking about stuff like this.

Post reply on HN