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Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

nature.com

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Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#191

Post by motohagiography »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #114
motohagiography wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What outcome does a domestic vaccine passport achieve? I work in health information privacy, where regulations were written to prevent that specific situation. There's no denying it's a proxy for political positions, so the case for it needs to be clear, especially in a world where people say in public that it is "irresponsible," to entertain critical opinions. What problem does a domestic vaccine passport solve?

> What problem does a domestic vaccine passport solve? The same problem the Yellow Card [1] solves. Right now, I have a New York State electronic passport and a CDC paper proof of vaccination. The former works in New York City. The latter works across the U.S., at least now. (At least, it worked in San Francisco and Atlanta.) If I travel abroad, I may need to get the latter re-certified since it's trivial to forge an…

I would bet a huge personal sum that if there were a federal legal guarantee of no vaccine passports, hesitancy would evaporate overnight, and every single SMART health leak and backdoor regulation to enable them is creating an increasingly hard core and radicalized resistance movement.

Yellow card is for some international travel and school enrollment. It is not a vaccine passport, so while I appreciate engaging the question, it's not clear that this is the same use case. Nobody asks an adult for their measles vaccination status in a normal domestic interaction like a concert, train, office, etc.

I think most people should get vaccinated and we can all move on with our lives, however, I also think a generalized vaccine passport for domestic use is an abomination with inevitable and horrific consequences, and so I am trying to get a sense of what the sincere case for it is. If it's just leveraging the crisis to institute bureaucratic social controls, I'll be the most reasonable man on the barricades.

We need a better "why" that is actually true, and not a cynical "noble lie," (like masks/no-masks was), because when you actually get off the internet and talk to people, it's the percieved lies and the attitudes of the people who tell them that are creating the hesitancy.

If a covid-unvaccinated person goes into a stadium or bar full of covid-vaccinated people, what is the effect? The only way the shots get more traction is with a clear and honest answer to that, imo.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#192

Post by Reason077 »

hammock wrote: post #4

This is great news, adding to a report in Nature that the natural immunity produced in people who have already had covid may last a lifetime.[1] In case you hadn't heard, the Cleveland Clinic--consistently regarded as one of the top hospital systems in the United States and in the world--recently shared a study of 52,238 patients showing zero incremental benefit from the jab to the previously infected, recommending t…

There are also cases of people being infected despite having had 2 doses of mRNA vaccine:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57640550

> “people who’ve had COVID-19 don’t need to get vaccinated.”

Having had Covid twice myself (different variants?), I don’t agree!

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#193

Post by vxNsr »

tunesmith wrote: post #73
jaywalk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's time for the naturally immune to be treated the same as those who've been vaccinated. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence to the contrary, and plenty of evidence to support it.

Just saw a quote from Gottlieb the other day saying that they think the vaccine is more protective against COVID generally than natural immunity... the variants also seem more likely to pierce prior immunity... and that what's really protective is if you get vaccinated after natural infection. (paraphrased, but pretty close.) Also, generally speaking, people who caught COVID were contagious for a while, while vaccina…

> Just saw a quote from Gottlieb

Who is this? Why do we care what he says? Can you provide a source for the quote?

The Cleveland clinic disagrees with your “authoritative” quote (see comments above)

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#194

Post by munk-a »

incrudible wrote: post #126
munk-a wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't - it's providing unified and clear guidance on vaccination. I'm up in Canada where vaccine hesitancy has been almost unheard of[1] and those who refuse to get vaccinated, excepting those that can't for medical reasons, are ostracized for their overtly selfish actions. The US, though, has a real problem with disinformation being accepted more readily than fact. I am fine with the theory of having a nuanced…

> I'm up in Canada where vaccine hesitancy has been almost unheard of[1] and those who refuse to get vaccinated, excepting those that can't for medical reasons, are ostracized for their overtly selfish actions. In other words, those who value individual freedom might want to avoid Canada for its over-boarding groupthink and overtly collectivist mentality.

I actually strongly disagree with this point. America has a very precise definition of individual freedom that I disagree with - it's a big part of why I emigrated. In the US you're absolutely free to die as you wish - in Canada you're free to live a healthy life and do with that life what you may.

Socialism and socialized healthcare frequently gets painted as being anti-freedom but I think that the lack of socialized healthcare infringes more effectively on individual freedoms than the presence of it. In the case of vaccinations - encouraging widespread vaccination (and there is currently and probably will never be a mandate) allows more of the population to act freely. Canada is only behind on vaccinations (and, in total doses administered we're now actually tied) due to the fact that we don't have domestic production facilities which resulted on our dose orders being delayed until America dealt with their domestic population. I don't think that's unfair and I've been pretty critical of the LPC that failed to build out domestic production facilities early into the pandemic but - eh, we work with what we've got.

I think you are projecting what you view as two options in America - either communism or individual freedoms - onto the rest of the world. That is a myopic approach to take when considering all the cultures and governments in the world.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#195

Post by r00fus »

motohagiography wrote: post #82
r00fus wrote: post #52

Can someone tell me why we (US) don't have a vaccine passport yet?

What outcome does a domestic vaccine passport achieve? I work in health information privacy, where regulations were written to prevent that specific situation. There's no denying it's a proxy for political positions, so the case for it needs to be clear, especially in a world where people say in public that it is "irresponsible," to entertain critical opinions. What problem does a domestic vaccine passport solve?

> There's no denying it's a proxy for political positions

What does that mean? Vaccination is not a political position in most other countries - it's just a policy goal at a national level.

The goal would be to give local governments and businesses an approved way to understand who has received the vaccine so they could open up safely.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#196

Post by CameronNemo »

wait_a_minute wrote: post #154
CameronNemo wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Masks do not provide as much protection for the users as for other people. I have a right to use public spaces.

We all have a right to use public space. If the users are not interested in the vaccination or don't already have antibodies, that is on them. They will have reaped what they sowed. It's not your business to police that though. And you ignored what I said about Florida and the other states where people have been going maskless for a long time without the numbers changing the trend.

You are free to cite to the statistics you are referencing. But I know in my community, cases did not fall until people started getting vaccinated en masse.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#198

Post by tunesmith »

vxNsr wrote: post #193
tunesmith wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just saw a quote from Gottlieb the other day saying that they think the vaccine is more protective against COVID generally than natural immunity... the variants also seem more likely to pierce prior immunity... and that what's really protective is if you get vaccinated after natural infection. (paraphrased, but pretty close.) Also, generally speaking, people who caught COVID were contagious for a while, while vaccina…

> Just saw a quote from Gottlieb Who is this? Why do we care what he says? Can you provide a source for the quote? The Cleveland clinic disagrees with your “authoritative” quote (see comments above)

Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former commissioner of FDA, https://twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1409465340292222986

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#199

Post by nradov »

Reason077 wrote: post #192
hammock wrote: post #4

This is great news, adding to a report in Nature that the natural immunity produced in people who have already had covid may last a lifetime.[1] In case you hadn't heard, the Cleveland Clinic--consistently regarded as one of the top hospital systems in the United States and in the world--recently shared a study of 52,238 patients showing zero incremental benefit from the jab to the previously infected, recommending t…

There are also cases of people being infected despite having had 2 doses of mRNA vaccine: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57640550 > “people who’ve had COVID-19 don’t need to get vaccinated.” Having had Covid twice myself (different variants?), I don’t agree!

With millions of cases there are always going to be a few outliers. It doesn't necessarily mean anything one way or another.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#200

Post by sjwalter »

mrj wrote: post #156
sjwalter wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian who emigrated to the US, the attitude you so proudly display--ostracizing people who aren't convinced of a novel vaccine with zero long-term safety information--makes me so happy I live here.

It's not novel, this technology has been trialed and used for a decade, 3 years in vaccines. We do already have long-term data. You would see side effects for a vaccine within six months, and we have been administering it for much longer than that. The vaccines are safe. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7956899/

This is incredibly misleading.

I used to be a close follower of the pharma industry, and you're making it seem like FDA trials happen on molecules and formulations somewhat related to the proposed formulation and then are, like, transitively approved on that hand-wavey basis. This is totally wrong.

For reasons that should be obvious to any engineer that's worked on any kind of even moderately complex system, the molecule that is tested and trialed is the molecule that goes to production.

You don't test "the technology" and then some unrelated other vaccine and then say, there we go, this one's safe.

You test the actual formulation that will go to production. This can't have happened for this yet. The trials are still underway. Unknown risk.

I dunno if you're misinformed or a troll, but that's dangerous stuff to be putting out there.

Vaccines are amazing life-saving tech, and they're safe because of our cultural technologies (FDA trials for e.g.) that make them safe. You can't take all the safety gear out and still get the same safety rating. Doesn't make sense, lol.

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