Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Europe's Software Problem

berthub.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 585 posts

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#191

Post by _-david-_ »

Gravityloss wrote: post #163
jpttsn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful Might this be a flip side of regulations that combat economic inequality? If so, the two should not be addressed as separate issues. But frontpage HN posts tend to be "Applauding Europes' long vacations and progressive taxes" and "Bemoaning Europe's lack of VCs with fuck…

It could well be the opposite. For example free education improves a software company's hiring prospects as there are lots of employee candidates available with good education. In some countries social mobility is a real thing. As a practical counter example, Sweden has massive taxation and something like most billionaires per capita and a very vibrant software and startup scene. One could actually do some kind of su…

Sweden does not have the highest billionaires per capita. Hong Kong, Monaco, Switzerland all have higher rates for example. There are several additional places as well.

Is Borland actually a European company? It looks like it was started in California and has a headquarters in Texas. It is now owned by a company in the UK, but it doesnt really seem European to me.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#192

Post by bennysomething »

pelorat wrote: post #181
pilsetnieks wrote: post #25

I take offense at such massive overgeneralizations as "Europe lacks imagination." What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful. This kills business models which cannot show any profit whatsoever, and a large portion of the remainder are killed by data regulations forbidding "alternate paths of monetization" (to put i…

In some countries, if your startup fails you're legally obliged to pay back all money that was invested in it, and you won't be able to start another until you've done so.

Which countries? I've never heard of this, sounds insane!

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#193

Post by pwthornton »

Some of the stuff in this article may be fine, and trying to raise money is certainly harder in Europe, but I thought one of the biggest drags on Europe's tech industry is poor pay for engineers and other tech talent?

In the U.S., going into a tech career can be one of the best ways to make a high salary quickly -- especially without needing an advanced degree. Without this incentive, you'll have a lot less people pursuing education and careers in these areas.

A software engineer makes like 50% more salary (let alone all of the other stuff) in the Bay Area as they do in London. London is a really expensive city that pays certain industries a ton of money.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#194

Post by hocuspocus »

MichaelRazum wrote: post #113

Living in EU. Can only say, the main reason is in my perspective regulatory and taxes. Some points - It is difficult to issue equity and get equity (tax) - Each EU country has different taxes. You are taxed lower in Netherlands than in Germany. - Each country has different regulation rules. If you do something exciting. Wow let's say a social network. You would be killed by regulation and data privacy rules. Autonomo…

> Autonomous driving the same. Blockchain forget it.

There's plenty of both in the EU. And blockchain is more useful as a counter-example of innovation than anything.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#195

Post by arcturus17 »

pjc50 wrote: post #138
eldaisfish wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP's phrasing is wrong but there is a point there - it is much easier to achieve success and then regulate and distribute its benefits than to go the other way round. I am not a fan of unbridled capitalism a la the USA and fully agree that more countries should strive to reach European levels of worker and civil rights... however, there is validity to the statement that Europe is currently coasting along on the spoil…

> Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe Well, apart from the whole WW2 business. This is the trouble with generalisations across the continent, the closer you look the less well they fit. And if you look across a continent and back in time, the situation varies even further. Germany used to be "th…

Spain was razed to the ground during the Civil War (1936-1939) and people were literally eating cats and rats off the streets so I doubt that any of our current wealth is inherited from our former Imperial glory, aside from maybe some intangible, indirect and minuscule effects such as “historic capital”.

To your point, same goes for Germany indeed… Have you guys seen the pics of what cities like Berlin, Nuremberg or Frankfurt looked like after the war?

There is a lot of old money in Europe, as some families managed to shield it from these crises, then compound interest did the rest, but I’d really like to see some proof about the sentiment being repeated ITT that Europe’s current wealth is inherited or handed down, because the idea sounds contrary to everything I know about the continent’s history.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#196

Post by qsort »

dgb23 wrote: post #165
qsort wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not going to comment on anything else since "flexible working laws" and "less relaxing lifestyle" can mean anything, but "light a fire under their ass until they are forced to innovate" is unironically and unapologetically good. If there's one thing that consistently fosters innovation and progress it's competition. That's something that holds true everywhere. Software, industry, education, games, sports, you name it…

The most impactful and important innovations typically come from people who are intrinsically motivated. Also, competition skews innovation towards solving problems that arrive from competition. You might just be hiring lawyers to bully a competitor instead of fostering sustainable progress. Or if your market is unregulated you can decide to use more severe methods.

> people who are intrinsically motivated

People who are intrinsically motivated are going to do their thing regardless of the boundary conditions. There's no way to give someone intrinsic motivation and there's no way to take it away from them. You would have had to physically handicap Michelangelo to prevent him from sculpting or Maradona from kicking balls and so on.

Incentives definitely aren't everything, but they do work, and when you talk about systemic problems you have to think statistically.

> You might just be hiring lawyers to bully a competitor instead of fostering sustainable progress. Or if your market is unregulated you can decide to use more severe methods.

I'm talking about competition, not laissez-faire. If you're saying that competitive markets have to be fostered and don't just magically happen, then we are just vehemently agreeing.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#197

Post by sime2009 »

xeromal wrote: post #185
pjc50 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe Well, apart from the whole WW2 business. This is the trouble with generalisations across the continent, the closer you look the less well they fit. And if you look across a continent and back in time, the situation varies even further. Germany used to be "th…

WW2 could be taken as a benefit for Europe in the macro sense. * Influx of funding and loans from the US to rebuild * Able to rebuild legacy systems that were destroyed in the world (roads, buildings, new code standards, etc) * Reduced population means each individual is more valuable (See rising wages after plagues in the middle ages) * Increased interdependency to combat Russian and US pressures * The UN, NATO, etc

This is the "broken window fallacy" on steroids. There is no net benefit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#198

Post by selfhoster11 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #168
selfhoster11 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capa…

> The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" I get the distinct impression that people who liken the US to a third world country are from one particular spot on the political spectrum. This seems like political rhetoric, not a summary of some level-headed analysis. Inequality, crime, etc in the US are certainly problems, but that seems like a low bar for the "third world c…

America's problems are numerous and have been discussed elsewhere at length. Suffice to say that sometime between 9/11 and the 2008 financial crisis, America has not been keeping up with other economies in terms of what makes a first world country worth living in. Biden may change that, or he may not. In any case, America has a lot of catching up to do if they want to overtake Europe (and some other places) in anything besides profit.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#199

Post by xeromal »

sime2009 wrote: post #197
xeromal wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WW2 could be taken as a benefit for Europe in the macro sense. * Influx of funding and loans from the US to rebuild * Able to rebuild legacy systems that were destroyed in the world (roads, buildings, new code standards, etc) * Reduced population means each individual is more valuable (See rising wages after plagues in the middle ages) * Increased interdependency to combat Russian and US pressures * The UN, NATO, etc

This is the "broken window fallacy" on steroids. There is no net benefit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Ok

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#200

Post by selfhoster11 »

sime2009 wrote: post #197
xeromal wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WW2 could be taken as a benefit for Europe in the macro sense. * Influx of funding and loans from the US to rebuild * Able to rebuild legacy systems that were destroyed in the world (roads, buildings, new code standards, etc) * Reduced population means each individual is more valuable (See rising wages after plagues in the middle ages) * Increased interdependency to combat Russian and US pressures * The UN, NATO, etc

This is the "broken window fallacy" on steroids. There is no net benefit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

How so? It's pretty axiomatic that destruction and rebuilding cycle that follows a continental-scale war lead to widespread investment and an economic boom.
Post reply on HN