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Please commit more blatant academic fraud

jacobbuckman.com

191–200 of 365 posts

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#191

Hmmm. Here we see the following claim: > By partaking in a form of fraud that has left the Overton window of acceptability, the researchers in the collusion ring have finally succeeded in forcing the community to acknowledge its blind spot. For the first time, researchers reading conference proceedings will be forced to wonder: does this work truly merit my attention? Or is its publication simply the result of fraud?…

The author is saying that all of the papers are bullshit, garbage, and a waste of time. He is saying that everyone is turning a blind eye to this. He is saying that now that the fraud has got this bad, it is out in the open, and people will be forced to deal with the fact that the entire field is filled with garbage.

That's right. Btw, I think the author is wrong. This is not "out in the open" now. It's been "out in the open" since for ever. And those who act all surprised about it are probably the ones who knew it better than most.

I don't mean the author, of course, but he is pointing to some of his own papers as bullshit. Why did he publish bullshit papers if he knew they were bullshit? Or doese he mean those papers are bullshit with hindsight? That, I can understand- "I wrote this paper ten years ago and reading it now, I cringe". Sure, that happens and it's only evidence of the person's progress. But to say that one's research was bullshit in the context of an article that describes academic fraud that leads to the publication of bullshit? That I don't get. Surely the author is not confessing to committing academic fraud himself! I didn't get that from the footnote anyway.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#192

In undergrad, my professor explained to me in very candid terms (from the position of being a generous mentor) that the optimal path to success in the Arts and Social Sciences is: 1. Find a niche only a couple of people operate in. 2. Make friends with them at all costs and work in their area. 3. Review each others work, amassing enormous citations in highly respected (albeit sometimes niche) journals.

A similar dynamic in mathematics is why I chose to leave academia a quarter century ago.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what part of falling in love with people in the lab, people in the lab falling in love with you, and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired? Sorry, honest question. Being from a different culture, I honestly fail to get this kind of outrage. For me it's just a description of humans being human...

FUnny you leave out the part where he also said if you criticize a woman in the lab they cry... He made a terribly misogynistic "joke" and paid the consequences for it. You'd think someone with a Nobel prize wouldn't be so clueless

> FUnny you leave out the part where he also said if you criticize a woman in the lab they cry...

Do you think women in the lab, when criticized, are more likely, less likely, or equally likely to cry?

Is the scientist’s comment mean spirited, or sexist, or just an observation?

I think it’s important to consider what the intent behind these jokes are. The Wikipedia article calls out statements from 29 other scientists that note how women (and men) were advanced within his lab and outside his lab.

So if this person thinks that the women he’s worked with cry when criticized, so we not want him to say that? It seems more like the goal should be to not stigmatize crying as that seems pretty reasonable for all genders, rather than to stigmatize talking about crying.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know any of the context here, but it seems to me that what the quote actually says is that the author admits that he is unable to function effectively with female colleagues, that there are other men like him, and that it's a problem that mustn't be allowed to hold women back from doing science.

It's interesting that everyone defending this old coot is just memory-holing the clearly misogynistic comment "if you a criticize a woman in the lab, they cry" and are choosing to only mention the comments that are more easily defensible as a "joke"

Please give some credit to other posters.

The way I read this; when he says "you", it's the generic you: he's talking about the "chauvinist monsters" like himself, and it's in the context of three particular ways in which his own failings prevent him working with women.

He forms and encourages inappropriate emotional relationships with his female colleagues and it affects his ability to give criticism of their work effectively.

Now you have the right to read that a different way; but please respect that others are not just "memory-holing" misogynistic comments for some reason or another.

I'm not defending him: he definitely has a problem with his attitude to women, it sounds like it might absolutely create a hostile workplace, and it's almost certainly inappropriate to be talking about the subject in such a light-hearted manner - but this is fundamentally a mea culpa rather than a criticism of women in science.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#195
> Undermining the credibility of computer science research is the best possible outcome for the field, since the institution in its current form does not deserve the credibility that it has.

This is obviously somewhat tongue in cheek, but I’m not sure the author appreciates the full implications of how this would play out. Research funding for AI exists in competition with funding for all other fields. Revealing deep-seated BS would serve mostly to decrease funding commitments to AI projects in favor of other fields, or away from R&D entirely. It would be bad for all researchers (but if the true level of fraud is that high, and I have no doubt that it is, this may simply be an inevitable market correction).

Other comments in this thread seem to miss the point as well: “why don’t universities select for quality not quantity”? Well, the change has to start with the funding sources for the unis to care.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#196
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think that allegedly driving a PoC student to suicide would count for something in the PC twitter sphere…

Are Asians PoC? I thought they were not and that was literally the only reason the oft repeated phrase “black and other PoC” didn’t literally translate into “not white”.

I have never heard the suggestion that Asian people aren't considered "PoC".

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#197
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it quite ironic that every time some unethical academic behaviour is published on HN, there's several posts about "move to industry this never happens here". I mean this is HN, a significant portion of the industry is working on optimizing for clicks and keeping people engaged (addicted?) to some platform or the other. Let's not even talk about the blatantly unethical (and often times illegal) things that happ…

Sure, but as an individual researcher, the integrity of your scientific work is not compromised by the unethical goals of your employer or the unethical ways in which it raises funding. That's what I'm claiming. It's rather different from amateur vs. professional athletics, where both have the same goal of "run as fast as possible but within some nebulous concept of natural human ability": the goals are different bet…

> as an individual researcher

And how is an individual researcher funded, if I may ask? We already have many homeless teachers living in their cars, so I don't think the power of public opinion will rebalance financial incentives to make an even more useless profession (in the eyes of the general public) attractive. Joe-Schmoe-the-janitor won't see financially supporting lone nerds as a first priority.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#198
post #26

There's another solution: give up on academia. The model of academia works well when some part of society is willing to fund researchers spending time on open-ended basic research, even if it produces no results. Saying "Don't engage in unethical behavior" is well and good, but if the incentives are towards unethical behavior, you shouldn't expect very much. Academic funding and employment is very closely linked to t…

>> All you need is a pile of cloud VMs, and industry can get you that.

That is true if by "AI research" you mean "applications", as opposed to contributing anything new. To contribute new knowledge what is needed is time and the resoruces to study the work of those who have contributed new knowledge before you, and to become an expert in that knowledge. In theory, that's half the job of a PhD student. The other half is creating new knowledge. Beating benchmarks is not the job of a researcher, despite what's the norm in machine learning research these days.

>> So I don't have an answer for why those coauthors went along with it.

Because the motivation of researchers in industry is money, not knowledge. Academia is capable of motivating researchers to create new knowledge. It is also capable of motivating them to commit academic fraud. But industry only understands one motive and can only offer one reward.

Basically, if your university pushes you to publish or perish, you might publish bullshit, or perish, or find yourself a niche where you can publish something that isn't bullshit. Many researchers do this, but of course you don't hear about them because they're not in the news. In fact, you probably hadn't heard about Geoff Hinton, Yoshua Bengio, Yan Le Cunn and You-Again Schmidhuber before the big boom of deep learning, because at the time they were just such small-fry researchers (compared to what they are today- I once had a look at Hinton's publication record and he was anything but small fry academically, even in the 1980's, when the lore says he was roaming the academic wilderness isolated from the mainstream; it's all bollocks). For sure, no Google was throwing millions at them at the time and the machine learning community as a whole had more or less given up on neural networks, or rather the majority of machine learning researchers where happy to leave Hinton et al and Schmidhuber to work on neural nets, while everyone else was working on Bayes nets, then decision trees, then SVMs, etc.

I digress, but what I'm trying to say is that "publish or perish" is the norm for researchers who are not motivated enough, for their own personal reasons, to make meaningful contributions. They are not the only kind of researcher and when progress happens, it comes from the other kind. But researchers in industry only have one motive, because industry offers only one incentive and is only interested in results that satisfy that incentive- regardless of how those results are brought about.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#199
post #44
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... non-PC jokes are a liability risk for the institution at large. Dead students are not. We have an identical phenomenon in hospitals: there are huge campaigns against sexism and the like, while there are multiple young professionals committing suicide from burn-out every year and noone does as much as bat an eyelash. Contrary to victims of discrimination, dead people can't easily organize into coordinated lega…

You would think that allegedly driving a PoC student to suicide would count for something in the PC twitter sphere…

I get the distinct impression that the Twitter sphere isn’t genuinely concerned about people of color, or else they would express concern over, say, inner city violence. Instead they work hard to brand any such concern as “far-right”.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what part of falling in love with people in the lab, people in the lab falling in love with you, and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired? Sorry, honest question. Being from a different culture, I honestly fail to get this kind of outrage. For me it's just a description of humans being human...

I guess for me the thing that's really crappy about this quote is that it shows his underlying attitude - that women are basically always potential romantic partners. If he was into men, and he said he didn't want men in the lab because he might fall in love with them, you can sort of see how absurd it is, and how unpleasant it is to be the object of romantic fantasy when you're just trying to get on with your job.

> women are basically always potential romantic partners

Ok, why would that not be the case? Laws? PC? Age difference? Love/biology doesn't care about social rules, and this has been shown time and again in every possible situation you could think of.

> you can sort of see how absurd it is

Huh, no I can't. What makes it different when you reverse the situation?

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