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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#191

Post by sharkmerry »

jandrese wrote: post #59
thehappypm wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how gerrymandered these proposals are. Make sure that the Bay Area is split across two states, so that both stay blue.

The even more crazy part is the proposed Jefferson has less than 1/10 the population of West or South California but still has a higher population than both Dakotas, Washington DC, Alaska, Vermont, or Wyoming. West California would still be one of the most populous states in the union, coming in just behind Ohio in 7th place and South California would be nipping on its heels. Silicon Valley would be ranked near Tenne…

> it's probably less crazy than having almost 40 million people be represented by just 2 senators when Wyoming has the same number of senators for barely half a million people.

This was purposely the design of the Senate. This complaint should be more applied to the House, where we stopped increasing the number of reps as population grew

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#192

Post by pchristensen »

jerf wrote: post #28

One of the things I periodically mentally noodle with is, what would the world look like if it was a lot easier for units to choose what larger units they would aggregate into? Like, cities choosing a county, counties choosing a state, states choosing their country, etc. I originally was noodling with this in the context of a space civilization, where there is no equivalent of "solid ground", everything's always movi…

You'd probably be interested in reading about a governance experiment going on in Honduras, called Prospera - https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/prospectus-on-prospera

It includes a codified section about choosing your own set of laws to abide by, and mechanisms to resolve disputes between them. It's a long read, but I found it fascinating and it's closely related to your idea.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#193

Post by cratermoon »

mc32 wrote: post #155
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

Note that this movement isn’t recent and I think I’d traced to the proposed state of Jefferson[1] (in the NorCal, south and east Oregon areas), which was going to get a vote in Congress but WWII got in the way and never happened. It comes up from time to time; you’ll see banners for it in rural areas. So it should not be framed as a pushback to current politics. They feel they’ve had reasons for a while. [1] https://…

You can trace it all the way back to the Mormons and their idea of the State of Deseret https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Deseret

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#194

Post by foota »

ipaddr wrote: post #185
URSpider94 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

The need for many government programs (money spent on enforcing hollywood copyright) and the tax rules that create corporate wealth but cost other areas must be considered. The midwest could do away with many expensive budget items but are forced to pay a share. The wealth of the nation could flip if heavy import duties were imposed forcing a manufacturing back inhouse. Things are the way they are because the powerfu…

> The wealth of the nation could flip if heavy import duties were imposed forcing a manufacturing back inhouse.

You mean the wealth of the nation would decrease?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#195

Post by teclordphrack2 »

mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

The main driving force is that the rural residence are the remnants of the racist that moved to that area even pre-statehood. They don't like that their white power is fading and they want control.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#196

Post by 0xB31B1B »

rhacker wrote: post #184
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

I own land in a rural area (house coming in maybe a year) and I have spoken to the neighbors. For the most part it's little things actually. Rules that the major cities deal with, like not being allowed to put up a specific kind of fence because the bureaucrats in the city look at .1 acre plots of land and don't like how certain fences look - where out here we're dealing with 5 to 100 acres (and in some cases a 40000…

yea, thats not really the story in idaho/oregon area. A lot of the issue there is that lots of the land is owned by the federal government, and the people who live near by and are in ranching/mining/logging don't want to follow the rules the fed gov puts on operations in BLM land. There is a bit of "some guy 4k miles away in washington isn't allowed to tell me I can't ride my dirt bike here" attitude.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#197

Post by jeffbee »

omegaworks wrote: post #69
pcan77 wrote: post #4

Why not just move to Idaho then? Or some other red state?

They would be abandoning some incredible watersheds[1] if they did. That's probably the point of this whole project, to put a huge chunk of western water resources under the control of a single state amenable to white supremacists[2]. 1. https://geology.com/lakes-rivers-water/oregon.shtml 2. https://www.npr.org/2020/10/17/924461164/are-paramilitary-ex...

I mean, not wrong, but Oregon was founded as an explicit white ethnostate. The state constitution language barring "negroes, mulattos and Chinamen" was not even removed until 2002.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#198

Post by notJim »

Ccecil wrote: post #30
pcan77 wrote: post #4

Why not just move to Idaho then? Or some other red state?

They are. Coeur d'Alene, ID is at the top of the US for hottest real estate markets. Average housing cost increase of over 40% in the last year. [1] Boise and Eastern Idaho are seeing similar growth. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/lakeside-idaho-city-is-americas...

But is that being driven by people moving from rural Oregon? I am skeptical.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#199

Post by teclordphrack2 »

BobbyJo wrote: post #183
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

>My personal believe is presently, for lack of data that I can digest, that the far right is probably focused around emotions Both sides have appeals to emotion and appeals to logic in their platform. For instance, what basis is there for universal healthcare other than 'we should help each other'? You can't make the argument that it would 'save the government money' to the right, because, in their opinion, the gover…

Except a lot on the left is driven by data.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#200

Post by BobbyJo »

URSpider94 wrote: post #85
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

I think it's worth considering whether or not rural vs urban is the best way to partition the argument. Cities tend to be very office/payroll dense, and rural areas more home dense. Some of the people who work in the city, and generate some of that revenue, may live in a rural area and consume services there.

As far as cost scaling, I kind of disagree. That calculation doesn't work well in the US, where a large portion of the people who work in the city commute. I come from a rural area and live in the bay area now, and I can say without a doubt I spend much more time on the road here. Same with emergency services, they were waaaayyyy better in my (very small and poor) hometown in terms of response times (or responding at all), and I can't see how that would cost more than running the same services here.

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