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Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

arstechnica.com

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Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#191

Post by josephcsible »

Vespasian wrote: post #190
josephcsible wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is still a distinction made between this and "physical ownership" (e.g. no right to inherit / sell the content). Are you saying this like it's a good thing?

Yes, that is what I'm thinking. I recently changed my mind on this and used to believe that digital goods should be treated identical to physical ones. Fundamentally the nature of things make them different and we should recognize this when discussing what rights which party should get. Whether the two facts I stated make sense is certainly up for debate, but I don't believe we can move forward insisting that rules i…

If I buy a movie on a DVD, should I be allowed to sell it when I'm done with it? If so, what's the difference between that and selling a digital copy when I'm done with it from the copyright owner's perspective?

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#192

Post by CJefferson »

pureliquidhw wrote: post #149
crazygringo wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. It's well past time that Congress passes a law explicitly to that effect -- if you lose access to purchased content, whether because your account was terminated or the content was removed, you get 100% refunded. End of story. Any TOS to the contrary are invalid.

How much should that digital content cost then? Make a DVD once, never think about it again. To offer digital copy that loses no value over time and must be available forever seems like a bad deal from the publisher's side. To offer a one time download code seems far more tenable.

If the download had no DRM, and I could freely copy it, I would have much more sympathy. Usually transfering to another machine is hard, or impossible.

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#193

Post by [deleted] »

crazygringo wrote: post #146
Diggsey wrote: post #17

IMO it wouldn't matter if they'd used the word "Rent" or "Licence" instead: it would still be unreasonable. Account termination is entirely at Apple's discretion, meaning the term of your "rental" is not known when you actually pay for the content. For most people the term will be "forever", so that is the expectation. It's simple: if apple want to terminate your account, they need to refund you for any content you l…

Seriously. It's well past time that Congress passes a law explicitly to that effect -- if you lose access to purchased content, whether because your account was terminated or the content was removed, you get 100% refunded. End of story. Any TOS to the contrary are invalid.

[deleted]

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#194

Post by Dah00n »

bityard wrote: post #23

I hate to be so cynical, but here's exactly how this is going to play out, or I'll eat my hat: 1. Apple and Amazon will add language to their Terms and Conditions stating that regardless of the phrasing on their websites and apps, access to the media that customers purchase will be revoked if their account is terminated. And since it's in the agreement, it's binding: in general, you can't sue to get out of a contract…

Well then Apple will win in the US but not in the EU when they get sued there. In the EU you cannot bind someone to have less rights by hiding it somewhere in an EULA. If the button says Buy then legally you buy no matter what any contract says in small letters somewhere.

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#195

Post by noisem4ker »

interestica wrote: post #113
joshmanders wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent a lot of money on iTunes content (Nearing 1,000 purchased movies on AppleTV), and my assumption was the same. As long as Apple/iTunes doesn't go under, and given I don't do anything to violate Apple's terms, I will have access to this content. I understand I can lose access, I'm not paying for the content in the idea that I own it forever even if Apple goes under or I get terminated, but I have perpetual a…

> If I had expected to own it forever, I'd probably have bought DVD's, not digital. This is the opposite of what it should be. DVDs degrade over time, and can last for as little as 10 years. Digital should be mean transportable and convertible indefinitely.

Do printed DVDs last that little? That sounds more like the lifespan of burned discs.

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#196

Post by gambiting »

rascul wrote: post #54
gambiting wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, contracts can say literally whatever they want, and it doesn't mean they will stand up in court. If the court agrees that Apple selling $25k worth of stuff and denying access to it isn't "fair", then it isn't fair, end of story, regardless of what the contract says. The court might of course disagree, but you can't be certain until the case happens. I do however believe that Apple will just settle this ou…

I think the courts are going to look for legality instead of fairness.

I mean, yes, ultimately, but a contract that's aiming to be deceptive or one that imposes extremely punitive measures isn't going to be legal. You could write a contract that says that you can at any point terminate the contract and the other side has to buy you a latest Lamborghini. Like, there's nothing illegal about that in itself, but if the paragraph about the Lamborghini is just mentioned once on page 178 of the contract and not advertised anywhere, almost certainly any court will find it null and void, because people who have their contracts terminated usually don't have to buy people cars. Not illegal but unfair, which makes it deceptive which makes it illegal.

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#197

Post by ImprovedSilence »

CJefferson wrote: post #192
pureliquidhw wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much should that digital content cost then? Make a DVD once, never think about it again. To offer digital copy that loses no value over time and must be available forever seems like a bad deal from the publisher's side. To offer a one time download code seems far more tenable.

If the download had no DRM, and I could freely copy it, I would have much more sympathy. Usually transfering to another machine is hard, or impossible.

Do files from itunes have drm on it these days? I thought waaay back in the beginning they did have it, but then at some point they went drm free. (At least fir music) At what point did they sworch back?

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#198

Post by crazygringo »

pureliquidhw wrote: post #149
crazygringo wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. It's well past time that Congress passes a law explicitly to that effect -- if you lose access to purchased content, whether because your account was terminated or the content was removed, you get 100% refunded. End of story. Any TOS to the contrary are invalid.

How much should that digital content cost then? Make a DVD once, never think about it again. To offer digital copy that loses no value over time and must be available forever seems like a bad deal from the publisher's side. To offer a one time download code seems far more tenable.

There are lots of possible solutions:

- Explicitly advertise that you're buying access to the content for x years, not buying it outright

- Allow for non-DRM content download either as standard, or as a guaranteed backup option

- If a company goes bankrupt, bankruptcy proceedings ensure that users' content licenses are transferred to another provider at no charge, funded with liquidation proceeds -- with priority over contractors, lenders, investors, etc.

There are lots of solutions.

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#199

Post by Natsu »

Diggsey wrote: post #17

IMO it wouldn't matter if they'd used the word "Rent" or "Licence" instead: it would still be unreasonable. Account termination is entirely at Apple's discretion, meaning the term of your "rental" is not known when you actually pay for the content. For most people the term will be "forever", so that is the expectation. It's simple: if apple want to terminate your account, they need to refund you for any content you l…

I feel like they should have to put the account in some "inactive" state where he can't get any new stuff but keeps access to all existing purchases.

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#200

Post by zelon88 »

Diggsey wrote: post #17

IMO it wouldn't matter if they'd used the word "Rent" or "Licence" instead: it would still be unreasonable. Account termination is entirely at Apple's discretion, meaning the term of your "rental" is not known when you actually pay for the content. For most people the term will be "forever", so that is the expectation. It's simple: if apple want to terminate your account, they need to refund you for any content you l…

I support this. But I do have questions.

Hypothetically; what if Apple were to cease to exist? Or wanted to discontinue their streaming services? Assuming Apple were in such a position, their financial outlook would probably not be good. They would likely be financially unable to reimburse that many subscribers.

How would winding down such a service work?

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