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‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#191

Post by xavriley »

dane-pgp wrote: post #118
puranjay wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think researchers underestimated how much solar simply “makes sense” to the average person. Once the price is reasonable enough, people are very easily able to latch onto the idea of using what they already know and feel - the sun’s heat. Whenever I mention the solar panels in my parents house, the first question is always about the price. When I tell them they will break even in a few years, their next question is…

> I tell them they will break even in a few years Then why don't more companies offer to become your electricity provider and install the solar panels for free? They could say "We promise that your energy bills will be cheaper this year than last year (as long as you don't use more energy), and within a few years you'll own the panels and can switch to a different electricity provider."

One reason is issues with property ownership. In the U.K. a company could do this but if the original customers were to see the house, they’d have no legal means of compelling the new owners to take up the arrangement. At least that’s what I understand.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#192

Post by GlennS »

dane-pgp wrote: post #118
puranjay wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think researchers underestimated how much solar simply “makes sense” to the average person. Once the price is reasonable enough, people are very easily able to latch onto the idea of using what they already know and feel - the sun’s heat. Whenever I mention the solar panels in my parents house, the first question is always about the price. When I tell them they will break even in a few years, their next question is…

> I tell them they will break even in a few years Then why don't more companies offer to become your electricity provider and install the solar panels for free? They could say "We promise that your energy bills will be cheaper this year than last year (as long as you don't use more energy), and within a few years you'll own the panels and can switch to a different electricity provider."

In Australia, Commonwealth Bank (the largest bank here) is offering a $20000 "Green loan" at 1%.

That does more or less what you're asking for I think?

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#193

Post by tda »

gwicks56 wrote: post #120
koolba wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are we at in 2021 for pay off period? Does it vary by region?

In Australia, after a $2500 .gov subsidy, mine will pay for themselves in 4.5 years. LG Panels with 25 Year output guarantee. 6.6kw System. Financially speaking it's a complete no brainer. One thing I did notice when I was living in the USA though, was how expensive it was over there compared to Australia. Installation costs are 3x the price, I have no idea why. My system before the subsidy was $11k, and that was for…

I paid €3900 for 22 panels, 7.2kw system here in the Netherlands. I did install it myself (but the whole package was delivered and the electric connections done by the supplier), and the panels and inverter are cheap Chinese brands. As I didn't situate them ideally and they lose efficiency as the heat up quite drastically I expect to generate between 4500 and 5000kwh. That should save me about €800 a year so this is a pretty solid business case.

So to me the US prices seem even more ridiculous

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#194

Post by beefield »

apatheticonion wrote: post #182
toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

Relevant quote: "Every time you double producing capacity, you reduce the cost of PV solar by 28%." Current worldwide PV manufacturing capacity is roughly 165 GW [1] [2], with a utility scale price close to $0.01/kWh [3]. Manufacturing capacity is doubling every ~4 years. Global PV capacity in service is ~600 GW. IEA Average global annual capacity additions in main and accelerated cases, 2023-2025: https://www.iea.or…

Let's run the numbers! - Every 4 years our production doubles - Meaning every year our production capacity increases by .5 (or 5 times every decade). - The first year (2020) starts at 165GWh capacity production - The total energy use of the world (in 2013) was 157,000 TWh. - Annual growth in energy demand was 40% between 1990 and 2008. - 20% for the US - 150% for China Let's calculate solar energy generation capacity…

Is there some confusion in the units? IEA claims that global electricity production from solar is in the order of 720TWh

https://www.iea.org/reports/solar-pv

And the total electricity consumption is over 20 000 TWh/a, which, given current trends, means that 100% of current electricity consumption would be covered by solar already next decade. (You were discussing energy, not electricity, but electricity should be the smaller one)

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#195

Post by coryrc »

edoceo wrote: post #79
Spooky23 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peak solar production is in the summer. Peak electricity demand is driven by AC, primarily when it’s hot... in the summer.

cascadia summers hardly need AC too, it rarely gets over 35c

This (not needing A/C) was true until the now-annual fires made it dangerous to open the windows.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#196

Post by girishso »

hilbertseries wrote: post #183
robocat wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a mortgage then you are effectively borrowing $23k from the bank for the period of your mortgage - so the total interest could be a significant chunk of money. Assuming that you have some leeway to pay your mortgage off quicker (depending on your exact terms).

How does interest factor in here? Your mortgage is fixed with the bank.

OP means he could have prepaid the $23K of mortgage, instead of spending on the solar system.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#197

Post by supermatt »

koolba wrote: post #78
puranjay wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think researchers underestimated how much solar simply “makes sense” to the average person. Once the price is reasonable enough, people are very easily able to latch onto the idea of using what they already know and feel - the sun’s heat. Whenever I mention the solar panels in my parents house, the first question is always about the price. When I tell them they will break even in a few years, their next question is…

Where are we at in 2021 for pay off period? Does it vary by region?

To install on your roof - 7-8 years in lithuania. There is a ~20% subsidy for up to 10kW systems.

Alternatively, pending a change in the law, there are solar fields where you can purchase panels (also eligible for subsidy) and pay an annual maintenance fee. In this case it is around 6-7 yrs.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#198

Post by kragen »

Fomorian wrote: post #187
kragen wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Wuxi is insignificant. Wuxi has been a city for 2200 years, since London was a scattered group of Celtic-speaking villages. Even earlier, in the Spring and Autumn Period, the capital of the State of Wu, Meili, was probably in what is now Wuxi, though it may have been a few kilometers to the southeast in Suzhou. This is where the famous war of Wu against Chu began, a century after Romulus was said to hav…

London was never Gaelic. The populations living in Southern England would have spoken Brythonic languages, not Goidelic. And at any rate... it's pretty obvious he was referring to Wuxi today. I don't think anybody's about to have an issue referring to the Sparta of today as insignificant, its historical significance being whatever it might be.

Thank you for the correction! It was totally unfair of me to conflate all the insular Celtic tongues like that.

I do think I made reasonable arguments that Wuxi today is far from insignificant, didn't I?

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#199

Post by seabrookmx »

hilbertseries wrote: post #183
robocat wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a mortgage then you are effectively borrowing $23k from the bank for the period of your mortgage - so the total interest could be a significant chunk of money. Assuming that you have some leeway to pay your mortgage off quicker (depending on your exact terms).

How does interest factor in here? Your mortgage is fixed with the bank.

If you pay off your mortgage quicker you pay less interest. Not sure what you mean by "fixed".

Atleast where I live a standard 25 year mortgage can be paid off in ~10 if you were to double up your payments, because all of the additional money you're paying comes off the principal. Thus, the non-interest portion of the payment has _more than_ doubled.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#200

Post by RobinL »

anonuser123456 wrote: post #77

Is there a way to invest directly in solar to offset your personal use, without installing it directly on your house/land? My existing house isn’t particularly suitable from a cost perspective to install solar on (clay tile roof, a good 20 years left at least). I also don’t really want to manage an installation project, nor own the maintenance and risk. But I would pay to directly offset my consumption. Something lik…

I did this in the UK through https://schools-energy-coop.co.uk/.

The main thing I was looking for was something where I felt my money would genuinely provide additional capacity (i.e. they weren't just going to build it anyway). I also think it's a benefit they're built on schools, so hopefully get the kids thinking about renewables.

Their cost per kWh generated is comparable to a home installation with none of the hassle.

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