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EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

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Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#191

Post by Hiopl »

christophilus wrote: post #63
cycomanic wrote: post #28

So lots of people commenting that they don't have an issue with such software. Fine, but that's an entirely different debate. This is about the company sueing someone for criticising the software, by detailing how it is supposed to work. So even if we accept that we need such software, do we really want to go down the path that software companies can sue people for talking about how it works and criticising them?

I haven’t seen anyone commenting in defense of Proctorio. To be honest, Proctorio seems indefensible. I hope this student makes bank. To your second point, the US legal system is extremely litigious, so I don’t know how you turn that ship around. I agree that this should be thrown out as a frivolous suit and the student should be compensated for damages— legal fees, time, psychological stress, etc.

Might have been different hours ago, but now I see plenty of comments saying "but it's necessary".

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#193

Post by MattGaiser »

nradov wrote: post #187
lostcolony wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a CS degree a better solution is make it project based. Even if someone uses code found somewhere, just changing it up to not be obvious, that's not that different than actual industry, AND means they had to understand it at some level. And that's for stuff they -can- search for (such as 'implement a data structure/algorithm').

Sure projects are generally better than exams. But cheating on projects and papers is also rampant. Students just pay someone else to do the work.

Projects also need to change dramatically year after year or else people will just get the project from the year prior.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#194

Post by lotsofpulp »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #139
mannykannot wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically, if all existing diplomas were invalidated and the entire system of diploma-granting were to be stripped away from educational institutions, an equivalent would quickly be re-established by the free market - and it would probably resemble Proctorio. > So my question is: who are we trying to solve the problem for? What is the expected outcome, knowing that there will always be people who "cheat" their wa…

Is there a correlation between having a degree and competence? Because my experience is that there very much isn't. I would go so far as to say that the information age has made educational material so widely and easily available that the only value universities provide is signaling and wealth/class filtering.

Could engineers that cheated their way through college have developed microprocessors? Built bridges and skyscrapers? Achieved space travel?

Perhaps there is value in knowing someone has been able to work in a team setting and complete given tasks.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#195

Post by hackerrrnews »

aaron695 wrote: post #163
fxtentacle wrote: post #5

In case you don't know who Proctorio is: (like me) Apparently it's a supervision software that students are forced to install on their private computer and (as expected) it'll do its worst to invade your privacy and flag "suspicious" things, based on which the university might punish you. "Suspicious" here means wearing glasses [3] or looking around in the room or blinking too much [4] or having eye and/or skin color…

> or having eye and/or skin colors [1] Yet you could only link to one example for a totally different program ExamSoft. They had a thick dark beard above a dark shirt and dark glasses with reflections (on a much lighter skin tone). They also look like they have a second eyebrow due to the lighting on their eye lid and glasses. It could be their head shape tied to their race I guess, but you have a sample of one from…

My favourite Hacker News game to play is to count all the hoops people will go through to deny the fact that maybe, just maybe, race can be a factor in people's experiences.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#196

Post by arp242 »

jkelleyrtp wrote: post #150

I personally believe education should just move forward into a world where cheating is impossible. Hands-on schools like Olin College of Engineering make it practically impossible to cheat... because you actually have to build something! Sure, plagiarism is still an issue, but that's much easier to control for than monitoring students while they take a test.

I don't disagree, but the issue here is one of scale and costs. Testing is just easy, cheap, and very ingrained to boot. A single teacher can teach dozens or hundreds of students.

Olin charges $55,612/year tuition fees alone; the total costs are estimated at $79,024/year[1]. This is a lot higher than a lot of other "normal" universities[2], and even seems higher than most "top universities"[3].

I'm sure it's great if you can afford it, but most can't.

[1]: https://www.olin.edu/admission/costs/cost-of-attendance/

[2]: https://uscollegeinternational.com/2019/10/03/cheap-engineer...

[3]: https://studyabroad.careers360.com/articles/engineering-in-u...

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#197

Post by smolder »

silexia wrote: post #167
MattGaiser wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I think people here are underestimating the volume of cheating in school. It isn't a minority. It is an overwhelming majority if they think they can get away with it. https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2017/02/cheating_in_college_... https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-academic-cheating-1....

Maybe we should stop endlessly pushing and insisting on degrees... Maybe skills tests in an interview process is not such a bad thing. As an employer, I don't care what piece of paper you have from what school. I only care about how well you can do the job I need to be done.

I don't think you want a doctor without a degree, and there are many similarly difficult professions with a lot of impact.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#198

Post by ModernMech »

leetcrew wrote: post #146
Guthur wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually very disappointing that this whole monitoring system was deemed necessary to begin with. How screwed is the system that anyone one would believe this level of intrusion should be part of the education process.

cheating was absolutely rampant when I was in college getting my CS degree. and that was with tests taken in person with the professor in the room! I'm sure students are even more brazen when all assignments are done at home. I think at the very least, all exams ought to be designed as "open book" with a time limit. that at least eliminates the issue of students using unauthorized resources. I'm not sure what can be…

Since the pandemic began, I've been giving my CS students take home exams, and the results have been so great. They are open everything, including the internet, and the students have 4-5 days to work on the exam, which is a project. I just don't have the ability to police 150-200 students as to whether they are cheating. So I assume they will cheat, and give them a cheating-resistant exam. Instead of asking knowledge-based questions they can look up, I've moved to analysis and synthesis type questions, as well as more substantial projects.

Pre-pandemic I would give them a paper exam in which they had to read and identify bugs, or write code by hand. This was the tradition. Now they actually use their tools to the best of their ability, and I get to see what they are capable of.

You might think this testing paradigm would result in everyone getting 100%, but that's just not what I've seen. The distribution of grades the last exam was normal with a mean of 80%, pretty much in line with what I get during a typical semester. As we transition back to a classroom environment, I don't expect to move back to paper-based CS exams. They are just wrong on so many levels.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#199

Post by lostcolony »

nradov wrote: post #187
lostcolony wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a CS degree a better solution is make it project based. Even if someone uses code found somewhere, just changing it up to not be obvious, that's not that different than actual industry, AND means they had to understand it at some level. And that's for stuff they -can- search for (such as 'implement a data structure/algorithm').

Sure projects are generally better than exams. But cheating on projects and papers is also rampant. Students just pay someone else to do the work.

Which presumably is why a lot of mine also included demos followed by questions about the implementation.
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