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Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

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Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#191
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can totally understand what it feels to miss out while seeing others enjoy at the same time.

true. 99% of the time i wasn't on campus so "come to the friday afternoon austin beer bash" e-mails didn't bother me as I wasn't in austin :). its more the silent power dynamic that i felt. if a full time apple employee is just spouting nonsense on a call, i was not going to make too much of a peep. but if they had a disagreement with me or one of my coworkers we usually just had to grin and bear it and "ohh yes of c…

The pay for most Apple contractors in Austin is abysmal. Multiple people I knew from UW earned barely over $30k a year working there.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. For me, and probably many on this board, the biggest risk is "works-for-hire". Under US law, contractors have strong legal protections of their own intellectual protection. Whereas it's much easier for a W-2 employer to claim IP made in personal time. I don't really care about healthcare of unemployment…

> Forcing freelancers into W-2 status is just another example of the government screwing people over "for their own good". It's the government screwing _some_ people over for the good of everyone else, where it's presumed that "good of everyone else" is worth more to society than what is lost by those that get screwed over by it. At least, that's generally the intent.

Its more having a fake second class worker which benefits massively the employer and not real self employed people.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forcing freelancers into W-2 status is just another example of the government screwing people over "for their own good". It's the government screwing _some_ people over for the good of everyone else, where it's presumed that "good of everyone else" is worth more to society than what is lost by those that get screwed over by it. At least, that's generally the intent.

I’m very glad we’re only screwing over “some” people, good to have that cleared up, thank you for that...it’s still an abominable practice to put any amount of laborers through.

Government policy is inherently concerned with those kinds of moral tradeoffs. Vaccines and lockdowns naturally pose such questions.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there are insufficient votes in Congress to change it. Even the current implementation of various managed care organizations and mandatory coverage with limits on premiums and out of pocket maximums BARELY passed. And it was gutted pretty quickly when the most important part of it, mandatory purchasing of insurance (I.e. a tax), was repealed in 2017.

Which is crazy from the simple standpoint. All businesses other than health care coverage providers would benefit from never needing to worry about this HR burden again. Probably those small companies lobby / donate to both parties to prevent a single payer system where normal workers and normal employees don't have to care.

They're not small companies, the managed care organizations (MCOs) are some of the biggest companies in the US.

But I do not think their lobbying is what prevents single payer. For one, single payer (taxpayer funded healthcare) still uses managed care organizations in the US. The only difference is that instead of paying insurance premiums to MCOs, you pay taxes to the government. The government then goes out and hires the MCOs to ration healthcare and implement various formularies and double check doctors' orders to limit spending and prevent waste. This currently happens with Medicare (over 65 years of age), Medicaid (low income/wealth), and Tricare (for military).

So the MCOs are involved in the healthcare delivery no matter what. The only difference is for non military, non poor people pay MCOs insurance premiums instead of taxes to the government, with which the government then hires MCOs to do all the administrative work of dealing with patients, doctors, finding fraud, approving/denying medicines, negotiating pricing, etc. Although, the government sets pricing in big ways too, via reimbursements for Medicare/Medicaid.

In any case, the elephant in the room is and always has been how much do people with money want to pay for people without money. The more obfuscation there is, the less healthcare is delivered, and the less it costs people who would be net payers into the system.

Sidenote: I think governments (politicians) like the system of using MCOs because they take the heat for any rationing or mistakes in the implementation. It's not the government denying you, it's UHC denying payment, even though the government gave the formulary to UHC to implement.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every job requires some amount of on the job training. FTEs of all levels at Google are practically useless for at least 6 months after they join, often requiring hours of training and 1-1s. It's pretty standard. Yeah I agree that it sounds like a good deal until they fire you after two years and don't allow you to move up like they used to. These terminations are arbitrary, unnecessary, and legitimely harmful to peo…

> and don't allow you to move up like they used to Is there even a position to move up to? > These terminations are arbitrary, unnecessary, and legitimely harmful to people's lives, so no I don't think it's fair or humane. That's something they should bring to Modis, their employers. Also, do they operate any other data centers outside of Google ones?

> Is there even a position to move up to?

Yes, it is common for data center workers and tech support to move up to sysadmin or something similar sometimes even SRE.

They are given a 6 month trial period on a team to train and then go through the external interview process afterwards

> That's something they should bring to Modis, their employers

The whole point here is that they effectively work for Google, and Modis is a layer of indirection that enables Google to exploit them, so bringing this up to Modis is kind of besides the point

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#196
post #77

This is all due to Microsoft contractors (who were treated like regular employees in the 80s and 90s) winning a lawsuit that retroactively forced Microsoft to give them a ton of stock. Companies now have to be rude to contractors to avoid a similar lawsuit. https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/13/business/technology-temp-...

> Companies now have to be rude Or, you know, not do the thing they want to do which is to have employees while pretending they aren't employees.

I once knew a guy who was paid $1500 US dollars per day working for the government as a contractor. He was an SAP Developer.

For the first 6 weeks of his contract with the government, he didn't have a computer at his desk. So he sat there reading manuals and stuff.

I don't think the government will ever want to reform the system of "contractors should be employees". The government too benefits from contractors. Bigly.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#197
post #12

> Love the good pay. > It pays relatively well ($15 per hour for most contract workers). How is that relatively well? Compared to McDonald's employees, probably. Compared to other actual technical jobs, like electrician, I can't imagine. Compared to Google devs, not at all. Working 40 hours a week with no vacation that's about 31k. Being a contractor means no sick leave, vacation days, pension, insurance, etc. The US…

They were hired with no skills and trained on the job.

Now, 2 years later, they can get a job at any data center. They can work for Google, AWS, Azure, or any data center they wish. On the job training is the sweet bit.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#198
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand why all the staunch libertarians just don’t move to a favela or some other similar place where they can enjoy absolute freedoms

In Response to this common statement we have 2 video responses You Can Always Leave ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fasTSY-dB-s ) Why Libertarianism Is So Dangerous ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbNFJK1ZpVg )

This was painful to watch.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#199

This article is a great example of "essential journalism", which is quite rare overall.

"Sensational journalism". Asking questions that are clearly answered by an expert in the article, but then continuing to pretend that the answer is unclear.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Compared to McDonald's employees, probably. Compared to other actual technical jobs, like electrician, I can't imagine. When someone has few work skills - as noted in the article - do they more closely resemble a McDonald's employee or an electrician? Yes, people with low/no skills and little/no experience tend to start in crap roles. Some people will not further their skills, abilities, or knowledge and stay there…

Tell me - are there any possibilities of advancement in today's streamlined datacenter job? In the past, someone eager and capable might have been given training opportunities, but that doesn't really exist any longer, does it?

Not sure about Amazon datacenters, but I know an actual person in real life who went from an unskilled Amazon warehouse worker to a full-time SDE at Amazon with zero previous coding experience or a relevant degree. All in a 1-year timespan iirc, simply going through one of the training programs that their warehouse offered.

Apparently, those on-the-job training programs that Amazon offers actually tend to work at times. And of course this is just a single datapoint not indicative of anything, but it kinda shows that those programs might actually work to a degree. I don't doubt that their success rate is likely not even close to 100%, but if it worked even for a chunk of the people attempting it, it is still something.

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