MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#191

Post by pmiller2 » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 10:24 PM UTC

underpand wrote: post #90

pmiller2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know test prep courses are a thing, and that the wealthy are the primary consumers of them, right? Pretty much everything in the USA is pay to win.

This was downvoted because it's a disingenuous reply. Obviously, OP was not arguing that SAT can't be gamed.

I think I know when I'm being disingenuous, thank you very much, and that was not it. Mistaken, perhaps, but not disingenuous.

Even so:

> In any case, even small effects can be unfair. Let’s assume the effects of short-term coaching are really just a 20- or 30-point jump in students’ scores. That means they ought to be irrelevant to college admissions officers. Briggs found otherwise, however. Analyzing a 2008 survey conducted by the National Association for College Admission Counseling, he noted that one-third of respondents described a jump from 750 to 770 on the math portion of the SAT as having a significant effect on a student’s chances of admissions, and this was true among counselors at more and less selective schools alike. Even a minor score improvement for a high-achieving student, then—and one that falls within the standard measurement error for the test—can make a real difference.

https://slate.com/technology/2019/04/sat-prep-courses-do-the...

Test prep, even if it's as rudimentary as taking the test multiple times (thus, being able to afford to take the test multiple times), is an advantage that matters.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#192

Post by pdonis » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #142

pdonis wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, video lectures, lecture notes, problem sets, solutions, and references to textbooks is more than just "a dumping ground". When I look at what's available on OCW for the classes I took when I was at MIT, everything that I got any learning value from is there.

The biggest part of any "elite" university is being surrounded by similarly high achieving people, to learn from and be motivated by. Attending any random state college gives you theoretical access to all the non-human resources (except labs) that the typical MIT undergraduate will access.

> The biggest part of any "elite" university is being surrounded by similarly high achieving people, to learn from and be motivated by.

While this is a common belief (and many people, before I went to MIT, were very effusive in telling me how much it would benefit me), my experience is that it is a myth (or at least it was at MIT when I was there). Of course there were high achieving people at MIT when I was there, but there were also plenty who were not; overall I don't think the distribution of motivation was much different from high school. (Motivation is not the same thing as grades: most of my fellow students at MIT got straight A's in high school for the same reason I did, that for us, high school was simply not that challenging academically, so we could be lazy and still make the grades.) As for what I learned from my fellow students, I can't say I learned nothing (since, for example, learning what pot smells like counts as learning something), but I don't think I learned anything significant academically that I wouldn't have learned from my peers at a less selective school.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#193

Post by pdonis » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #153

pdonis wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, video lectures, lecture notes, problem sets, solutions, and references to textbooks is more than just "a dumping ground". When I look at what's available on OCW for the classes I took when I was at MIT, everything that I got any learning value from is there.

Here's a tell of critical incompleteness — find Analysis 1, which is a must-have course for math and adjacent technical majors.

> find Analysis 1

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-100b-analysis-i-f...

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#194

Post by ghaff » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #190

908B64B197 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more to a degree than just the coursework.

If you mean there is more to the credential than the coursework, of course that's true. But the only possible value in the credential is scarcity; if everyone gets it, it ceases to have any value as a credential. Or if you mean there's more to the experience of going to college than just the coursework, of course that's true as well. But if everyone went to MIT (or any other selective school), that experience would c…

And if I'm really honest, not to suggest the coursework (especially hands-on) didn't have value, but a huge part of what I learned was exposure to many things--including non-STEM--and various activities outside of classwork. I only use things I learned undergrad in the most general sense today.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#195

Post by pdonis » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #194

pdonis wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you mean there is more to the credential than the coursework, of course that's true. But the only possible value in the credential is scarcity; if everyone gets it, it ceases to have any value as a credential. Or if you mean there's more to the experience of going to college than just the coursework, of course that's true as well. But if everyone went to MIT (or any other selective school), that experience would c…

And if I'm really honest, not to suggest the coursework (especially hands-on) didn't have value, but a huge part of what I learned was exposure to many things--including non-STEM--and various activities outside of classwork. I only use things I learned undergrad in the most general sense today.

> a huge part of what I learned was exposure to many things--including non-STEM--and various activities outside of classwork

I think these things can be found at any decent school. Or, for that matter, in many kinds of activities outside of any school.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#196

Post by hintymad » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

souprock wrote: post #187

scarmig wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AP Physics is calculus based. Some other points: 1) SFUSD actually delayed Algebra 1 until 9th grade, not just Geometry. 2) This choice was a bit silly, but beginning algebra concepts are still being taught in middle school. The title of the course is less relevant than the actual content, and this was less of a radical change than the course title makes it sound. 3) The actual issue is that SFUSD eliminated algebra…

There are 4 different physics tests currently offered for AP. Calculus based: AP Physics C Mechanics, AP Physics C E&M No calculus: AP Physics 1, AP Physics 2 Of course you would need the one with calculus to get credit that works for any STEM major. Without calculus, you aren't likely to get more than a generic science credit.

When I was taking high-school physics, we started without calculus, but we definitely needed geometry. Otherwise, one wouldn't be able to work on free body diagram, circular motion, optics, and etc, as all of them involves trigonometry and some basic geometry.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#197

Post by ghaff » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 11:02 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #191

underpand wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was downvoted because it's a disingenuous reply. Obviously, OP was not arguing that SAT can't be gamed.

I think I know when I'm being disingenuous, thank you very much, and that was not it. Mistaken, perhaps, but not disingenuous. Even so: > In any case, even small effects can be unfair. Let’s assume the effects of short-term coaching are really just a 20- or 30-point jump in students’ scores. That means they ought to be irrelevant to college admissions officers. Briggs found otherwise, however. Analyzing a 2008 survey…

That's fair.

In extremely competitive situations, the slightest edge matter. Arguably test prep is less of an edge than spending a summer on some community project would be but even a relatively small point jump is an edge for someone on the bubble. And, of course, elite schools have become hyper-competitive. I have very few illusions that I would have the school choice I had when I went to college--especially given that that about an eighth of my class went to the school in question.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#198

Post by sudosysgen » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 11:04 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #188

sudosysgen wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standardized national exams are normally very highly correlated to academic ability as represented by grades by the same teacher. Actually, where I live, this is essentially the explicit goal of the national exams - they then generate a score that normalizes the difficulty of each teacher and use it both for selection and to evaluate the accuracy of the exam and update it next year. The data from which I learnt this…

The published literature doesn't support your claims, but that's OK because you have private data which you find more palatable? This is a fun combination with your posture of > If you disagree, you should provide a source.

Well, I did five minutes of googling, and found a public article on the subject : https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2333-8504....

>One index of that result was an augmentation in the correlation between the NELS Test and high school grade average from .62 to a multiple correlation of .90 based on the test plus 31 additional variables and corrections for unreliability and grading variations (see p. 72) [p. 105]

Here you go : test scores have a correlation of .9 with grades once you account for the grading difficulty of individual teachers and their unreliability (which is done by multiple national exams in the final synthetic grade). This means that they are excellent as a proxy for academic achievement, which can be restated as the following hypothetical : "what would be the grade of the students if they were to all be graded by the same, reliable teacher?"

Generally I think that the burden of proof on the statement "are exams better at predicting grades than IQ tests" lies on the negative, for the obvious reason that grades are generally composed of exams.

Also, the really cool thing with this is that you can also the reverse - after the teacher has had all of his students graded on the exam, you have all of the variables and can predict exam scores with a correlation of .9 (and thus general academic achievement with a correlation of .81), which means that you can avoid dispensing national exams at every level of schooling and simply use grades. You can even use this data later in college to evaluate how harshly a college professor is grading, and use that to generate much better grades in college!

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#199

Post by pmiller2 » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 11:05 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #197

pmiller2 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I know when I'm being disingenuous, thank you very much, and that was not it. Mistaken, perhaps, but not disingenuous. Even so: > In any case, even small effects can be unfair. Let’s assume the effects of short-term coaching are really just a 20- or 30-point jump in students’ scores. That means they ought to be irrelevant to college admissions officers. Briggs found otherwise, however. Analyzing a 2008 survey…

That's fair. In extremely competitive situations, the slightest edge matter. Arguably test prep is less of an edge than spending a summer on some community project would be but even a relatively small point jump is an edge for someone on the bubble. And, of course, elite schools have become hyper-competitive. I have very few illusions that I would have the school choice I had when I went to college--especially given…

The real problem [edit: with scores] here is that scores are reported on a 200-800 scale. If they were reported in terms of standard deviation from the mean, then those 20-40 point differences wouldn't matter to admissions officers. As it is, a 30 point difference looks significant, even though it's only around 0.15 SD.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#200

Post by ghaff » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 11:07 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #195

ghaff wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if I'm really honest, not to suggest the coursework (especially hands-on) didn't have value, but a huge part of what I learned was exposure to many things--including non-STEM--and various activities outside of classwork. I only use things I learned undergrad in the most general sense today.

> a huge part of what I learned was exposure to many things--including non-STEM--and various activities outside of classwork I think these things can be found at any decent school. Or, for that matter, in many kinds of activities outside of any school.

Oh, I don't disagree. Certainly with respect to hiring, I'm usually interviewing fairly senior people in not-directly hands-on tech roles. I won't say I don't look at the schools but they don't really play a factor in my evaluation. And some of the best senior folks I know are from schools that no one's heard of.