Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write • Hacker News Board

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#191

Post by racl101 » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

I always wondered why we reward vapid pop star hacks who can't do anything without a freaking team of people doing everything for them.

Like Britney Spears for example, can't play instrument, can barely sing, can barely dance, needs a choreographer, can't write music nor lyrics.

And I'm not talking about Britney Spears now, I'm talking in her prime.

All she really brought to the table was her looks and ok singing ability and the ability to move to someone else's choreography.

No innovations of her own. Little inherent talent. And then in mid 2000s she put on some weight and then couldn't even do the choreography well and she always needs some backup vocals in live performances and what you hear on the CD is all super processed vocals.

In general, pop stars since then are just conduits for the efforts of more talented people.

Sure, you got the few talented ones like Michael Jackson and Paula Abdul (who, though not a great singer, a world class choreographer). But the rest of them ... same crap.

I'd rather see an ugly old haggard dude who looks like Lemmy perform songs that they wrote and composed on their guitar.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#192

Post by asah » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

rgifford wrote: post #175

A friend of mine decided to pursue music production around the same time I started in software engineering. We're both 20 somethings. We swap war stories now and then. I get to hear about how he's working with his mentor to do vocal production on a track getting pitched for Maroon 5, The Chainsmokers, etc. Sometimes the tracks take -- the artist likes them and decides to move forward. Usually they don't and it's a lo…

so you're saying it he needed a little sweetness in his life? (ducks)

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#193

Post by gamblor956 » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #182

gamblor956 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Record producers are not entitled to royalties unless they have songwriting, composer, or performance credits on a song. Essentially, they're the guys who bring everyone together and make sure a song comes out at the end. Many record producers do participate in the songwriting or composition process and are credited for that work (for example, Jay-Z), but the vast majority don't (for example, Glen Wallachs, co-founde…

Some producers do get "points" just for production, even if they don't get a full writer credit. Production can mean anything and everything from project management, sound design, co-writing, arranging to hands-on instrumental parts - to turning up once a week and saying "Sounds great. Carry on." The split depends on the producer/artist agreement. Session musicians don't usually get points even though they may litera…

No, the law, and more importantly, the guilds (here, the SGA and SCL), are quite strict on these points.

A producer cannot "negotiate" creative credit if they did not earn it, because the guilds will not allow it.

If a producer wants writing credit, they must earn the writing credit by performing creative activities as specified by the guild rules. Project management and other "producing" activities do not count. Note however that the creative contributions of session musicians under WFH arrangements are generally attributed to their employer--i.e., to the producer, and SCL rules generally apply to determine the creative contribution the producer may claim for the work of session musicians.

Co-writing and arranging are not "producing" activities, they are writing and composition activities which can qualify for songwriting and composing credit. Few producers participate creatively in their songs, but the ones that do tend to be the more famous ones (like Dr. Dre, Jay-Z, Dr. Luke, etc.) and are use usually artists in their own right.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#194

Post by BurningFrog » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

andrewzah wrote: post #168

BurningFrog wrote: post #84

The music business has been massively "democratized" last few decades. Now anyone can record high quality music at home. Anyone can self publish their music for the world to enjoy. Both were unthinkable a few decades ago. But there are still a few gatekeepers, and gatekeepers will usually charge for opening their gate. Why wouldn't they? A megastar can choose to record any of dozens of equally good songs. Whoever the…

"Now anyone can record high quality music at home." Eh, to an extent. Audio production is a highly involved process. Few people have the equipment and knowledge to mic instruments & track sound properly, mix audio properly, apply professional-level production, master the tracks properly, master the album properly... It's not as easy as having a computer and some software. You can get a pretty good sound at home now f…

"Anyone" was a poor word choice. I meant more "any supremely talented musician".

A few decades ago, even the greatest talents in the world needed a recording contract to reach a large audience, and that went through a few large companies.

Today that still helps to get the best equipment and the best people working on your stuff. But you can also record in a home studio with better tech than The Beatles ever had access to.

Not a flat playing field at all, but I think a fair amount of people do come up that way.

As for the best songwriters... I don't really know the business, and I don't want to pretend to. You're probably right for the Megahits. Maybe I'm right for the filler tracks?

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#195

Post by tohnjitor » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #188

rgifford wrote: post #175

A friend of mine decided to pursue music production around the same time I started in software engineering. We're both 20 somethings. We swap war stories now and then. I get to hear about how he's working with his mentor to do vocal production on a track getting pitched for Maroon 5, The Chainsmokers, etc. Sometimes the tracks take -- the artist likes them and decides to move forward. Usually they don't and it's a lo…

Fascinating, can you share which song(s) he "made it" with?

Nice try, California department of revenue

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#196

Post by triceratops » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

pumaontheprowl wrote: post #155

triceratops wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't actors just make a movie without a script? They're just words on paper. Why doesn't an orchestra just start jamming, with no score or sheet music? It's just notes on paper. Why don't construction workers show up on a jobsite and start hammering without waiting for plans? It's just lines on paper. Why don't...you get the idea.

That's not an equivalent analogy. It's the exact opposite in fact. The equivalent analogies would be: Why don't screenwriters just film their own movies? Why don't composers just form their own orchestras? Why don't architects just build their own skyscrapers? The screenwriter example should make it obvious why these song-writers' complaints are baseless. A movie filmed by amateur videographers with no editing experi…

> Meanwhile movies with terrible writing rake in huge numbers at the box office just because they have big name actors and top-of-the-line production quality (ex: the Avengers)

You sure it's just that? All the DC superhero movies also have big name actors, top-of-the-line production quality, heavy marketing and merchandise tie-ins. Yet those movies have been largely duds. They don't have the same resonance in contemporary popular culture as the Marvel movies. Or ratings by moviegoers and film critics. They're generally considered dour, stodgy, weirdly paced, illogical, or lacking soul.

The scripts for the MCU movies won't win any film awards with the "ivory tower film snob"-type of moviegoer. But they're outstanding examples of the craft of screenwriting for their genre. And I'm speaking as someone who generally finds superhero movies and comic books, including the Marvel ones, kinda tedious. I don't listen to pop music either.

The MCU movies have wit, humor, sentiment, perfect pacing, and a tone appropriate to the characters (Guardians of the Galaxy movies are silly and playful, Captain America movies are more serious, Thor movies have an epic/Shakespearean feel). They do a good job of staying faithful to the source material while still being comprehensible to casual watchers. You think elves do all that? It takes serious writing skill, and every screenwriter isn't capable of it.

> A movie filmed by amateur videographers with no editing experience, no acting talent, and no marketing is not going to achieve mainstream success no matter how good the writing is.

"Professional movie-making requires multiple specialists" is not breaking news to anyone. The topic of discussion here is one of the specialists don't want to share credit with people who weren't involved in their work. Would it be OK if an actor demanded a makeup artist credit because they ran a comb through their own hair on set once?

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#197

Post by intrasight » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

EveYoung wrote: post #40

intrasight wrote: post #21

My opinion is that they shouldn't care and in fact have no basis to complain. I consider it "work for hire", and they are being paid handsomely for their work. Do we developers complain when, if we work for Apple, that Apple takes credit for our work?

Even if developers don't get direct credit, just having these big names in their CV increases their value massively.

I'm sure these songwriters put those big names on their CVs too

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#198

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

tohnjitor wrote: post #195

BitwiseFool wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating, can you share which song(s) he "made it" with?

Nice try, California department of revenue

"Actually, we're called the CA Franchise Tax Boa- ahh fuck"

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#199

Post by intrasight » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

jonnycomputer wrote: post #53

intrasight wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that the average is much higher than an SV salary. And the standard deviation is much higher too. More like in sports.

Well, sure, but the median is probably quite low.

Again - similar to sports. Is somewhat of a "winner take all" market.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#200

Post by dv_dt » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

rgifford wrote: post #175

A friend of mine decided to pursue music production around the same time I started in software engineering. We're both 20 somethings. We swap war stories now and then. I get to hear about how he's working with his mentor to do vocal production on a track getting pitched for Maroon 5, The Chainsmokers, etc. Sometimes the tracks take -- the artist likes them and decides to move forward. Usually they don't and it's a lo…

I thought songwriters had some sort of union or industry group that went to bat for them? The article and this discussion makes it sound that doesn't exist.

edit: hmm, ASCAP and Songwriters guild are a couple names that come up... though this might be something of a dispute within different groups within ASCAP..