Earlier quoted context omitted.
“Total cost zero”. The cost is never zero. Doctors, nurses, don’t work for free. Infrastructure isn’t maintained without money. It comes from somewhere.
What is the cost of an unhealthy population that defers or forgoes medical treatment? Where is that price exacted? In a 2019 Gallup poll, 25% of US adults said they or a family member had delayed treatment for a serious medical condition that year for financial reasons.
Hospitals lift curtain on prices, reveals giant swings for hips, knees and more
191–200 of 283 posts
Re: Hospitals lift curtain on prices, reveals giant swings for hips, knees and more
#192Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have good insurance through a major company. My SO tripped, and hit their head on a curb on a busy road. I wasn't there, but by happenstance an EMT was there, witnessed the event, and came to offer aid. The EMT was concerned enough my SO ended up going to the hospital. Several scans, and a few hours later, my SO was discharged. I then got to spend something like 30 hours on the phone over the course of a couple of…
That's awful. I hit my head in Thailand and went to the hospital, excellent experience I was in and out in 2 hours, got CT scanned and fully examined by a specialist, then left with a USB drive of my brain scans all for $180 out of pocket.
Re: Hospitals lift curtain on prices, reveals giant swings for hips, knees and more
#193Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's awful. I hit my head in Thailand and went to the hospital, excellent experience I was in and out in 2 hours, got CT scanned and fully examined by a specialist, then left with a USB drive of my brain scans all for $180 out of pocket.
How much does the $180 compare to the average income of a worker in Thailand?
US is $3k-$4k?
Re: Hospitals lift curtain on prices, reveals giant swings for hips, knees and more
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
“Total cost zero”. The cost is never zero. Doctors, nurses, don’t work for free. Infrastructure isn’t maintained without money. It comes from somewhere.
Paying for healthcare via taxes would look very, very similar to how it is now. Because that's how insurance works: you are paying into a pool now to get access to help later. I can't tell if you're being sarcastically libertarian or deliberately antagonistic.
They were just expressing the notion that while the acute personal cost is zero the actual cost is still borne. They didn’t make the point in a very nuanced way but any system that divorces the cost from the person receiving the treatment hides information by suppressing the natural price discovery mechanism.
Anyway, I agree that insurance has a similar problem, at least if policies like “no pre-existing conditions” are followed. However if such policies are not in place then premiums would go up and thus the information propagation of the price mechanism is (all else equal) restored.
I don’t have time to get into it but speaking from the US perspective I really wish we had a real free market system with no government revelation or licensure laws whatsoever. What we have now is criticized by the ignorant as a “failure of unbridled capitalism” but it is of course anything but. It is absolutely absurd that I can’t decide that I don’t want insurance and equally that I’m not told what a procedure or drug or item will cost beforehand. I’ve been to the ER several times and you’re always treated like a bag of meat to poke and prod and I have to be very diligent about constantly getting them to tell me what they’re actually doing. (And don’t even get me started on the chargemaster system where they initially charge you 10x more than what they expect to recoup purely for leverage to negotiate with insurance)
Re: Hospitals lift curtain on prices, reveals giant swings for hips, knees and more
#195Earlier quoted context omitted.
My mother lives in country australia and had pancreatitis it seemed. Hospital, cat and mri’s, spent a week in hospital, sent home, returned after pain returned. More tests, it was decided she should be sent to a larger regional hospital for biopsy. Flew by Lear jet, drove by road home I guess about three hundred miles. Advise was a Whipple procedure. I wasn’t inclined to agree for reasons I won’t go into. I declined…
“Total cost zero”. The cost is never zero. Doctors, nurses, don’t work for free. Infrastructure isn’t maintained without money. It comes from somewhere.
Re: Hospitals lift curtain on prices, reveals giant swings for hips, knees and more
#196I'm the technical cofounder of a mid-sized healthcare startup, and when I start explaining hospital administration to people, I start with this - every person working in your hospital or clinic has no incentive whatsoever for you to emerge healthier. The only goal is to maximize the ratio between the amount your insurance is willing to pay, and the amount of care that is provided. In the case of joint replacement, ea…
This is the gist of American healthcare.
A good read from someone who had a medical crisis, from a series of medical errors, is "Our Malady" by Timothy Snyder. He took great notes in his personal diary when the whole ordeal occurred and was able to trace back the errors, unlike most people. He also nearly died. He is a renowned American historian who is a scholar of European history, and particularly of eastern European history.
Anyways, the third leading cause of death in the US is believed to be preventable medical errors (you can also google "3rd leading cause of death preventable medical errors" and find other sources which corroborate the findings of this peer-reviewed journal article): https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139
When it comes to longevity of the human lifespan, as in life expectancy, by country, the US is about to soon mirror Croatia (I am a dual US|EU [Croatian] citizen). You know, that war-torn eastern European country that went through a nasty war in the 90s. Anyways, I am proud of my country, I mean Croatia. But, as Americans, we should be ashamed.
U.S. life expectancy will soon be on par with Mexico’s and the Czech Republic’s: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/0...
(non-paywalled version: https://archive.md/3EpBi)
Anyways, there are countries with national health insurance ("socialized medicine") and there are also countries that have universal health insurance coverage (guaranteed issue health insurance, which you are required to have under law).
From an access perspective Germany is very similar to the US, and has universal health insurance coverage. Switzerland has a system closer to what we have in the US, with respect to both access and privitization, and they do not seem to be having the problems that we have in the American healthcare system.
Just some food for thought...
Re: Hospitals lift curtain on prices, reveals giant swings for hips, knees and more
#197Kaiser is the only non-broken part of the U.S healthcare system. They have never sent me a bill for a surprise out of network anything. Out of network doctors don't work there. All doctors are on salary. You get one bill from one company. No wonder they have been growing like crazy in California.
Kaiser is popular and 'a' model of care, but do note that it is extremely limited in coverage and is one of the most draconian in respect to providers. They hire people right out of medschool with the offer to pay their entire student debt if they stay with them for 8 years. They have massive burn out.
Re: Hospitals lift curtain on prices, reveals giant swings for hips, knees and more
#198The U.S. healthcare system cannot be fixed. Period. Full-stop. The only solution is to nuke it from orbit, pave it over, and start again. It's very easy to point the finger at the conservative party as the one who's screwed it all up, but the other parties are not really putting forward models for successful healthcare systems. If one were to sit down and try to create the most absurd approach to healthcare that guar…
If you look at the predicted life expectancy of an American in 2045 for example, you would know it is time to be "making plans". You would also know that the price differential on salaries between America and other places in the world as a person in STEM is not worth the payoff long-term. Plus, you cannot put a price on your health. This is just one eerie statistic, for example: Medical error—the third leading cause of death in the US https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139 You cannot evade a statistic like that by going to the "best hospitals" or by receiving the "best healthcare" in America, or by having "good insurance".
By the way, I did become a dual US|EU citizen over American healthcare, as somebody who is chronically ill with 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system, plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin dependent).
Re: Hospitals lift curtain on prices, reveals giant swings for hips, knees and more
#199Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody is under the impression that there aren't costs to care, so your response feels like you're addressing a strawman argument and isn't really insightful.
Not sure why you think that. There are definitely people who think universal healthcare will cost nothing.
Re: Hospitals lift curtain on prices, reveals giant swings for hips, knees and more
#200I'm the technical cofounder of a mid-sized healthcare startup, and when I start explaining hospital administration to people, I start with this - every person working in your hospital or clinic has no incentive whatsoever for you to emerge healthier. The only goal is to maximize the ratio between the amount your insurance is willing to pay, and the amount of care that is provided. In the case of joint replacement, ea…
My mother lives in country australia and had pancreatitis it seemed. Hospital, cat and mri’s, spent a week in hospital, sent home, returned after pain returned. More tests, it was decided she should be sent to a larger regional hospital for biopsy. Flew by Lear jet, drove by road home I guess about three hundred miles. Advise was a Whipple procedure. I wasn’t inclined to agree for reasons I won’t go into. I declined…
Problem is, I don’t think it’s going to last. The ageing population means health costs will spiral, and health budgets will consume an unsustainably large proportion of revenues.