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Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

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Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#191
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest difference is in the waistlines. As reported just the other day[0]: > Of the 2.5 million COVID-19 deaths reported by the end of February 2021, 2.2 million were in countries where more than half the population is classified as overweight Japan is not one of those countries. As someone who lives in Japan I can tell you that the general population isn't wearing high quality, fitted masks in controlled condit…

Co-morbidities certainly have an impact on outcomes and explains why the IFR is much worse in certain parts of the world but IMHO it doesn't fully explain the magnitude lower attack rate/spread (50-100X worse in the US). That's still a mystery for which there are many plausible contributors, but I don't think it's so easy to just say it's obesity. In the US, this n=5700 NYC study showed 41.7% were obese [1] (not so d…

> If you're disappointed by how the general population behaves here, I suspect you'd be horrified/stupefied by what's going on in the rest of the world

You definitely have a point there (and that's not to say you don't have a point in the rest of what you wrote, some very interesting stuff, before I get lost on a tangent…) as I've not left Japan during the pandemic, making a good comparison is that bit more difficult.

I certainly wouldn't deny there are many factors at play, though if I were going to bet on the major factors and their order of importance (which is hugely simplistic but lists are fun):

1. age (obviously)

2. weight

3. vitamin D levels

4. hand hygiene

5. limiting contact / social distance

I can't say that I'd be impressed at Japan's attack on (4) and (5) but (2) and (3) seem like very strong buffers for the virus and/or disease. I'll be interested to see what comes out in the wash but I'm expecting it to take years, at least, if only because of political considerations.

> BTW, your argument on flu outbreaks actually lends credence that the mask mitigations have been extremely effective.

I do wonder if it's more the case that people feeling sick are sent home or don't come to work at all? Certainly it's happening far more often than in the past (as an aside, my wife's friend had a stroke while at work, continued working, and the next morning still rang into work to excuse herself, while partly paralysed and increasingly losing motor function… and wasn't believed and told to come in!). That and all the temperature checking could improve matters from other years. Again, it needs research.

The part of me that likes dark humour would muse that bringing real sick days to Japan and the end of the hanko might justify releasing the virus from the lab it was created in…

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#192
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Co-morbidities certainly have an impact on outcomes and explains why the IFR is much worse in certain parts of the world but IMHO it doesn't fully explain the magnitude lower attack rate/spread (50-100X worse in the US). That's still a mystery for which there are many plausible contributors, but I don't think it's so easy to just say it's obesity. In the US, this n=5700 NYC study showed 41.7% were obese [1] (not so d…

> If you're disappointed by how the general population behaves here, I suspect you'd be horrified/stupefied by what's going on in the rest of the world You definitely have a point there (and that's not to say you don't have a point in the rest of what you wrote, some very interesting stuff, before I get lost on a tangent…) as I've not left Japan during the pandemic, making a good comparison is that bit more difficult…

I agree that it will take a while to get non "hot takes" but in the meantime, agree that speculation can be fun. I'd previously spent a lot of time in Japan visiting, but this past year has been my first really "living" here so it's been a bit eye-opening to see first-hand some of the extreme dichotomies of bureaucratic competence/incompetence during this period. I have a few theories of my own on Japan's low numbers:

* There's probably consistently an undercount (in my head, I just multiply the daily numbers by 5-10X), but not much more than that as we saw in Dec-Jan that a true spike will be reflected by hospital overflows (https://www.stopcovid19.jp/ has been my go-to for tracking hospitalization numbers). There's some finagling of the death toll as well (COVID-19 deaths reported as pneumonia) but I think we'll get a true accounting eventually with excess mortality modeling (offset by much lower flu) that won't be so far off to matter. [1][2] Overall, somehow, the numbers really have been pretty low. This is corroborated by most seroprevalence research. [3][4]

* There seems to have been a lot more spread amongst young people in Tokyo/Osaka, especially over the summer but it seems to be fairly well contained - I think that metabolic health does play a big role there in why there wasn't a big spike in serious cases (obesity, and maybe more importantly, hypovitaminosis D is significantly lower in Japan). As to why it didn't spread beyond that group like most other places, I believe that the lower rate of shared housing is likely a big factor - single person households makes up an amazing (and still increasing) 35% of the population. Anecdotally, there seems to have been a conscious decision by many people to not see older family members to put them at risk, and there's been some interesting (but not conclusive) research on Japanese lockdown behaviors that seem to differ a bit from what I've seen in the West. [5][6]

* While there are exceptions, again, totally anecdotally, I've seen a huge decrease in people publicly coughing, sneezing etc and when there have been people coughing in public, generally people were well, avoiding them like they had the plague. In any case, I think an early focus on ventilation and near universal masking was pretty successful in significantly lowering casual spread.

* One thing that hasn't been reported much, but Bromhexine and Ambroxol are both very common OTC cold medicines in Japan. These are TMPRSS2 inhibitors, blocking the primary entry path for the SARS-CoV-2 virus (the secondary path, endosomal entry, can be blocked by Nitazoxanide or Niclosamide). It's quite possible that in Japan, people have been unknowingly taking medicine that has been effective in moderating COVID-19 severity (this to me, seems more likely than any proposed variolation effect).[7] To me, one of the frustrating things over the past few months is that there's been enough research pointing towards many low-risk prophylactics/treatments that are probably effective for preventing severe COVID that have been pretty largely ignored.

[1] Yorifuji, Takashi, Naomi Matsumoto, and Soshi Takao. “Excess All-Cause Mortality During the COVID-19 Outbreak in Japan.” Journal of Epidemiology 31, no. 1 (January 5, 2021): 90–92. https://doi.org/10.2188/jea.JE20200492.

[2] Kurita, Junko, Tamie Sugawara, Yoshiyuki Sugishita, and Yasushi Ohkusa. “Excess Mortality Probably Due to COVID-19 in Tokyo, Japan in August and September, 2020.” MedRxiv, February 9, 2021, 2020.07.09.20143164. https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.07.09.20143164.

[3] Yoshiyama, Takashi, Yasuki Saito, Kunitsugu Masuda, Yoshiko Nakanishi, Yasutoshi Kido, Kazuhiro Uchimura, Satoshi Mitarai, et al. “Prevalence of SARS-CoV-2–Specific Antibodies, Japan, June 2020 - Volume 27, Number 2—February 2021 - Emerging Infectious Diseases Journal - CDC.” Accessed March 11, 2021. https://doi.org/10.3201/eid2702.204088.

[4] Tanaka, Akihito, Shohei Yamamoto, Kengo Miyo, Tetsuya Mizoue, Kenji Maeda, Wataru Sugiura, Hiroaki Mitsuya, Haruhito Sugiyama, and Norio Ohmagari. “Seroprevalence of Antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 in a Large National Hospital and Affiliated Facility in Tokyo, Japan.” The Journal of Infection. Accessed March 11, 2021. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jinf.2021.01.010.

[5] CARF:Center for Advanced Research in Finance. “Japan’s Voluntary Lockdown.” https://www.carf.e.u-tokyo.ac.jp/en/research/5603/.

[6] Muto, Kaori, Isamu Yamamoto, Miwako Nagasu, Mikihito Tanaka, and Koji Wada. “Japanese Citizens’ Behavioral Changes and Preparedness against COVID-19: An Online Survey during the Early Phase of the Pandemic.” PLOS ONE 15, no. 6 (June 11, 2020): e0234292. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0234292.

[7] Gandhi, Monica, and George W. Rutherford. “Facial Masking for Covid-19 — Potential for ‘Variolation’ as We Await a Vaccine.” New England Journal of Medicine 383, no. 18 (October 29, 2020): e101. https://doi.org/10.1056/NEJMp2026913.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, I feel one result of political correctness has been a refusal to acknowledge how much obesity affects every aspect of your health. I used to be morbidly obese and I was constantly sick up until I lost 70 or so pounds and got to a reasonable weight. This also made dating so much easier. I'm going off on a tangent, but if I had to give one piece of advice to any young person it would be to get to a healthy weig…

> I'm going off on a tangent, but if I had to give one piece of advice to any young person it would be to get to a healthy weight. Following that tangent, I had a couple of family members turn 16 recently and I wondered what advice I could give them now that they are adults (or, at least, they will certainly believe that to be so! Ah, the folly of youth:) My thoughts settled on what would basically be me telling my y…

A big part of being 16 is thinking that you know everything.

But to be perfectly blunt, to a young man I would just tell him girls aren't going to really like you unless you get down to a healthy weight. That's the only thing that will probably get though.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#194
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on your replies, my own experience living in Japan, conversations with Korean people, and conversations with my sister who is living in Korea, I believe the the reduced spread of the virus in Japan & Korea compared to western countries is because of many behavior differences of Japanese & Korean people. For example: 1. In USA, few restaurant workers have job security. If they take sick leave, they lose their jo…

> In Japan & Korea, wearing a mask when sick in public is expected, like wearing clothing over your underwear. No, this isn't even close to true. I've spent far too many hours crammed into trains, classrooms, offices and bars, next to sniffling Japanese people who were walking around sans masks, to believe this silly narrative. Getting on a crowded train and having a guy repeatedly sniffing his runny nose six inches…

> ... to believe this silly narrative.

:(

I interpret that as a personal insult. Let's disagree without insulting each other.

> > So a Japanese or Korean person who feels a little under the weather will opt to keep their mask on when attending a maskless gathering, but an American in the same situation will likely take theirs off.

> This is a great example of stereotyping and asian exceptionalism.

Yes, we're talking about millions of people in aggregate. This requires stereotyping. Stereotyping is only bad when you expect an individual to behave like the aggregate.

> If anything, Japanese people are immensely aware of social pressure, and won't go against obvious social cues.

That's what I was trying to convey with my statement that wearing a mask is expected like wearing clothing over underwear. Your point about people sniffling on the train is compatible with a social expectation of wearing masks when sick. Every society has some non-conformists. The difference is that sick-no-maskers in Japan & Korea are outliers and in many parts of USA they are the majority. This is what I meant about many small differences adding up.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#195
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Japan & Korea, wearing a mask when sick in public is expected, like wearing clothing over your underwear. No, this isn't even close to true. I've spent far too many hours crammed into trains, classrooms, offices and bars, next to sniffling Japanese people who were walking around sans masks, to believe this silly narrative. Getting on a crowded train and having a guy repeatedly sniffing his runny nose six inches…

> ... to believe this silly narrative. :( I interpret that as a personal insult. Let's disagree without insulting each other. > > So a Japanese or Korean person who feels a little under the weather will opt to keep their mask on when attending a maskless gathering, but an American in the same situation will likely take theirs off. > This is a great example of stereotyping and asian exceptionalism. Yes, we're talking…

IMO you may be mistakenly attributing Western individualism here. If your friends are not wearing masks in some situation, you may choose to wear one and not fret about it, but not everywhere is like that.

This is not about individual no-maskers, but rather a peculiar social norm to collectively forgo wearing masks in certain situations.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... to believe this silly narrative. :( I interpret that as a personal insult. Let's disagree without insulting each other. > > So a Japanese or Korean person who feels a little under the weather will opt to keep their mask on when attending a maskless gathering, but an American in the same situation will likely take theirs off. > This is a great example of stereotyping and asian exceptionalism. Yes, we're talking…

IMO you may be mistakenly attributing Western individualism here. If your friends are not wearing masks in some situation, you may choose to wear one and not fret about it, but not everywhere is like that. This is not about individual no-maskers, but rather a peculiar social norm to collectively forgo wearing masks in certain situations.

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