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Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

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Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#191

Post by caffeinated_90 »

caffeinated_90 wrote: post #188

First off, came here after a fellow grad student directed me to this thread, but had to add a comment after reading all these comments. I'm please to see that so many have had relatively positive grad school experiences. I am genuinely shocked, in fact. In my program (a life science program), the number of students who have less-than-stellar relationships, many of which verge on an abuse of the power dynamic, is astr…

Note: I will not name and shame - my lab is small enough that it would be traceable and make me identifiable, particularly as I have spoken up and tried to address some of these issues in the past. I do provide students who are considering our lab a very honest overview of my experience (good, bad and ugly). I, OTOH, was lured in by students who told white lies and half-truths.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#192

Post by caffeinated_90 »

puddingnomeat wrote: post #184

Some advisors abuse emotionally. But everything is swept under the rug and administrators only care about results and no major complaints.

This, right here, is right on point. My advisor is also particularly apt at securing private funding, which benefits our research institute, so everything is somehow "addressed" and then, it's ok? Except, it rarely, if ever, is truly addressed and followed up upon.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#193

Post by caffeinated_90 »

aborsy wrote: post #145

There is a lot of politics in academia, but it’s mostly between professors, not professors and students. Frankly I have seen it’s mostly students who abuse the system. There are a lot of goof-offs who are paid by taxpayers and just want to party, have fun and get a degree. This is just my own observation. Why should a supervisor neglect a student if student is doing an OK job? What’s the motivation here? I am not say…

I mean, it's a great question: why would an advisor neglect a student when all is OK?

Pretty complex, and I don't think I can even do the full issue justice, but from my observations it comes down to:

1. Egos - some advisors get their nose out of joint when students start to surpass them in knowledge or ability on a certain topic (this hasn't been my issue, but I've witnessed it).

2. Boredom with a project - YUP - my advisor regularly gets 'bored' by a project because it isn't producing the data he wanted (he likes to create stories instead of seeing what story the data tells) or because it isn't moving fast enough for his desires.

3. Personality clashes/issues with management - this has been an enormous issue for most of the students in my lab, save for a couple of male students over the past two decades. When issues are brought to my advisor's attention, he will say the right things, apologize, and then amend his behaviour by wholly ignoring and avoiding the student for weeks or months on end. This is to the tune of cancelling in-person meetings, invalidating their opinions during lab meetings, avoiding them when they approach his office, etc. etc.

4. Cheap labour - students in their upper years, particularly those who are productive and successful - are great work horses. Why would you want to let go of a cheap and productive employee just when they start to churn out lots of great data for you? Casually ignoring or constantly expecting more before they can defend is a slimy way of using a student to generate more data (and therefore more revenue) for your lab.

I can't comment on comp sci situations, but in life sciences, particularly those requiring wet lab bench work, point #4 is a _very_ common issue in PhD years 5+.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#195

Post by temp8964 »

URSpider94 wrote: post #147
temp8964 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people fail to grasp the idea that the world does not always work surround them. And they have a very different definition of "abuse" than others, which basically goes to: you are abusing me if you don't actively take care of my emotions. For those people, it is much easier to find "abuses". Academic supervisors are not your personal friends. They have no interest in observing your emotions, because they have a…

The reason you don’t have personal relationships with students is not because of MeToo or the current political environment, it’s because it’s inappropriate, and always has been. And please don’t tell me it’s because of nerdy academics not being able to handle it. If you find yourself meeting with a single student anywhere but the office, discussing things that aren’t related to work, for any significant amount of ti…

What you said is definitely a new social norm because of the modern political environment. In the old days, it is perfectly fine for advisors to develop personal friendship with their favorite students.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#196

Post by mattkrause »

f6v wrote: post #99
loceng wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is 1-2 hours per week really that much? I suppose they also spend additional time reading what you've written, along with revisions, etc?

An engineering manager having 5-6 direct reports would spend the same amount of time in a company. I guess PhD students would be mentored by postdocs, the same way juniors are mentored by senior developers in the industry.

Those direct reports aren't (nominally) trainees though. Part of the "deal" is that you're being underpaid because you're being trained.

Mentoring by more senior folks in the lab certainly helps everyone (https://www.pnas.org/content/116/42/20910), but it's barely measured or rewarded for PIs and not at all for postdocs. Changing this would be an easy fix though--ask for a reference from a junior colleague when hiring.

More generally, there's a huge disconnect and sudden between the skills needed to get a faculty job (i.e., publishing a high profile papers as an individual contributor) and the skills needed to do well at it (e.g., management). Everyone is all antsy to shorten postdocs, but I'd actually be in favor of making the career path more gradual with so people get some mentored management experience.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#197

Post by Kliment »

Loic wrote: post #179

I will write something most likely controversial for HN, but I think what you write is very North-America and computer related "centric". As for the context, I am French, over 40, Master in France, PhD in Denmark and working in Germany. My work is chemical engineering at large, oil & gas, crop science, pharmaceutical but also food and flagrances. I am working with 50/50% men and women. My wife is working in oil & gas…

I think you've just been lucky to not encounter it. It doesn't happen to everyone. It's not necessarily even very frequent. But it's much much more frequent than it should be. So consider yourself lucky that you've not been on the receiving end of it (yet). I felt much the same until the first time I witnessed stuff like this happening, and it was eye-opening. Just because it didn't happen to you (yet) doesn't mean it's not a thing. And it's not specific to North America or to computing.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#198

Post by throwawayxx18 »

No .. The situation in academia is terrible and can be far worse than industry. In industry, h1bs and long term interns (a thing in Canada) also face some very real abuse .. but no where is it as prolonged as academia. It is a real shame. This is not just in the advisor advisee relationship .. but also when you submit papers to conferences and journals. As an insider to the reviewing process, I am often nauseated at the arbitrary and unfair nature of it all. I have seen attempts at fixing the reviewing system actually make it worse. Contract teaching and being a TA can also be horrible.

I want to say .. this is not a guarantee that you will be abused. There are many many excellent people (junior, senior, all around). You just need to protect yourself. If you spot abuse, speak up and be prepared to quit. Life is too short.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#199

Post by mattkrause »

cycomanic wrote: post #167
lvice wrote: post #35

I believe that abuse is more common in academia. A relationship between a supervisor and his direct reports, both in academia and industry, is impacted by the power that the supervisor can exert. The relationship between a supervisor and his PhD students is not the same as a manager and his direct reports in industry because: - The students are invested and committed into their PhDs for several years. It is much hard…

I think you have a couple of common misconceptions. I'm not saying they necessarily change your conclusions, but they should be pointed out nonetheless. >- The reward of a job is, for the most part, the monthly paycheck. A PhD is a long-term investment that must be completed in order to have value. An employee that quits a job after one year is not an issue, and it is considered "experience", but quitting a PhD half…

Recommendation letters from specific people play an outsized role in academia: without a strong letter from your advisor, it's difficult to move onto new positions or acquire funding, even after you've been gone a while. Other industries don't seem to have that sort of long-term lock-in. If they check at all, references from any of several people (colleagues, tech lead, anyone in your management chain) at your most recent employer are usually fine.

You're right about the bureaucracy, which can be crazy in the US and Canada too. However, it really only extends to spending money; there's much less oversight when it comes to running the lab (e.g., working hours, productivity expectations, conduct, etc). You might think that firing has as much oversight as hiring, but postdocs are often structured as short, renewable contracts and you can just....not renew them.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#200

Post by charlescearl »

Perhaps some of the perspectives offered are discounting the role that gender, race, immigration status, national origin play. I have witnessed comparable levels of abuse and discrimination across academia and industry

- woman grad student removed because of pregnancy.

- senior woman in management harassed because posing a threat to male subordinates

- pregnant H1B engineer harassed

a few cases witnessed on the basis of gender.

So the presumption that it is permissible to wield power in this way — that one is entitled to do so without consequence — is pervasive in the society, a function less of the particular setting.

What can be done? People try to find bosses/departments/companies/universities with better protections. People (students, amazon workers, meat packers) sometimes organize and unionize.

You can always find instances of Students/workers/scientists/sharecroppers who resisted. Some more effectively than others.

Does it have to be this way? Are there alternatives to ways that schools and corporations and nonprofits are structured? I hope you can bring some innovative perspectives as you move to the next stage in your career.

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