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US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

reuters.com

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Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#191

Post by enchiridion »

phyalow wrote: post #123
jeswin wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends. Most countries have ratified the biological weapons treaty. If proven to be lab created, the onus will be on them/whoever to prove that this was not part of a weaponization effort. Not to mention, instant loss of goodwill across the world. Personally, I think the idea of this being lab created by China is far fetched.

I used to think it was far fetched too, however applying Occams Razor and taking a read of this incredibly well researched article swayed me https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-esca... it would be worth your time.

Well that was a very long read. Yep I agree, very little doubt it escaped from a lab. The arrogance of the corona virus researchers is astounding.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#192

Post by duxup »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #190
ttz wrote: post #53

First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…

I just assume the ccp default mode is to cover up, even when there is nothing to cover up. When legitimacy derives from competence rather than from election, you better never have any high profile incompetence.

That's been a problem even internally in China where local government hides things from those up the chain and then things get out of hand.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#193

Post by refenestrator »

ttz wrote: post #64
bsd44 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you say so then it must be true. I mean this is internet after all.

Not sure where in my post it postulates anything about "truth". The entire point of the post is to say, we don't know the truth, but in the balance of probabilities, I wouldn't trust the CCP's version. Did you even read what I wrote, or are you just knee jerking?

I can't see what you're responding to, but if people make an accusation without evidence, the accused party's trustworthiness is kind of irrelevant, right? Fine, you don't trust their denial, but that doesn't affirmatively prove anything either.

They could deny killing JFK, as well, and it shouldn't change anything.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#194

Post by renewiltord »

MrYellowP wrote: post #187
renewiltord wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for putting this stuff together. In the past, I did the same when people asked for "source?" for things like "Fauci and the HHS recommended against masking". After I go through the painful process of reacquiring each of the sources, these people disappear. "Source?" is now the dual of the Gish Gallop strategy. It is a meta-rhetorical strategy to amplify work done by some perceived "opponent". After all, for…

> they disappear https://help.archive.org/hc/en-us/articles/360001513491-Save... :)

Haha I mean the people disappear after firing off their "Source" calls. They're not really interested in sources. It's a technique to get you to waste your time.

The sources remain. Editing for clarity.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#195

Post by LatteLazy »

endisneigh wrote: post #21

Forgive my ignorance but even if it was lab created, so what? I don’t really understand why it matters or not. Didn’t the entire world basically have a nearly 3 month heads up on this either way?

One of most interesting facets of this to me is that China have created multiple zoonotic diseases in the last few years and caused serious loss of life and economic damage and no one seems to want to say anything!?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#196

Post by tripletao »

kjakm wrote: post #113
esja wrote: post #31

I am yet to see a single piece of evidence which rules out the lab leak hypothesis. Meanwhile the circumstantial evidence in favour of that hypothesis (including China’s behaviour) continues to pile up. We may never discover the truth, but I really hope we do.

>> Meanwhile the circumstantial evidence in favour of that hypothesis (including China’s behaviour) continues to pile up. What circumstantial evidence?

Alina Chan's WSJ article is a decent popular summary,

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-world-needs-a-real-investig...

https://archive.is/R6kwN

There's also been a string of academic preprints and articles, like

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2102/2102.03910.pdf

The authors tend to be kind of fringe, not surprisingly given the reputational cost (and given that if a lab origin is ever confirmed, many of the techniques that top researchers have spent their lives mastering will probably become illegal). A lot of very senior virologists are on the record as open to the possibility of a lab escape, though, for example:

> Baric said he still thought the virus came from bats in southern China, perhaps directly, or possibly via an intermediate host, although the smuggled pangolins, in his view, were a red herring. The disease evolved in humans over time without being noticed, he suspected, becoming gradually more infectious, and eventually a person carried it to Wuhan “and the pandemic took off.” Then he said, “Can you rule out a laboratory escape? The answer in this case is probably not.”

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-esca...

I don't recommend that article in general; the author uses his talents as a novelist to paint a more vivid picture than I believe the evidence justifies. I do trust him to faithfully print the quote, though.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#197

Post by pgodzin »

esja wrote: post #31

I am yet to see a single piece of evidence which rules out the lab leak hypothesis. Meanwhile the circumstantial evidence in favour of that hypothesis (including China’s behaviour) continues to pile up. We may never discover the truth, but I really hope we do.

What evidence could ever rule it out?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#198

Post by justnotworthit »

loveistheanswer wrote: post #105
mgamache wrote: post #79

If anyone is tempted to associate 'lab leak' with xenophobia or anti-Chinese sentiment, please remember the WIV lab was in partnership with the U.S. NIH (National Institutes of Health). https://www.biospace.com/article/1nih-awards-ecohealth-allia...

Also noteworthy is Dr. Fauci has been a long time proponent and sponsor of gain of function experiments as head of the NIAID, the infectious diseases arm of the NIH.[1] After a few different US lab leaks involving anthrax, smallpox, and avian flu in 2014 the Obama administration put a ban on the fuding of gain of function research.[2] The ban was eventually overturned in 2018.[3] [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/op…

I don't get why supporters of GoF experiments with CoV in Wuhan aren't shouting from the rooftops that (1) They were right to predict the danger of a CoV originating from that area of the world and that (2) their research, years in the making, is thankfully (despite opposition's cries of danger) here to protect us. Instead, I can't find anything about the latest years of their research.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#199

Post by kergonath »

SurfingToad wrote: post #186
kergonath wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no winning with you... Of course it cannot be too powerful, because then nationalists would scream bloody murder and refuse to have anything to do with it. The WHO is a forum to coordinate strategy and exchange information. Obviously, this requires a minimum of good faith, which seems to be difficult for some countries (yes, particularly dictatorships). But even then, it is better to have them within, collab…

WHO does seem like a bureaucratic mess, though. I read their situation reports from the beginning of the pandemic, and was surprised by how often they messed up. Links were wrong, random files went down, and they were released at seemingly random time points. Their press conferences were often hours late. And Tedros Adhanom praised China to an honestly embarrassing extent. Before the pandemic, I thought the WHO was a…

There is certainly quite some room for improvement.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#200

Post by sa-mao »

mc32 wrote: post #161
sa-mao wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked Turkey is still democracy. A better example would be Egypt or KSA or UAE.

They’re a democracy in the same way Russia is a democracy.

I wouldn’t go as far as comparing Turkey to Russia. The recent Turkish elections have shown that the ruling Party in Turkey can lose key strongholds like Istanbul, this never happens in Russia. In Egypt, most contenders to the presidency are in prison now. Current president Al Sissi (a bloody dictator won by 97%) Erdogan om the other hand won by 53%. Putin by 73% while some major opposition leaders barred from running.

Turkey is often unfairly criticised by western media, which obviously prefers military dictators in power.

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