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Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

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Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#191

Post by decebalus1 »

pbourke wrote: post #62
decebalus1 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder about the sort of person who would design such a website. Surely you'd have to be dead inside to create such an abomination, even if it's just a job? I suggest you hang around Blind for a bit and you'll realize that some of our techie colleagues hold some.. interesting opinions about labor or about how much to pay workers we now consider 'essential'

I would urge you not to join Blind if you consider yourself reasonably comfortable with your perception of your coworkers. It will change.

Blind is very toxic. It's one of apps I install rarely, only when needed (something is happening at work or to gauge offers) just for mental health reasons. It's unbelievable what people are comfortable sharing under anonymity. HOWEVER, it's one of the only places in tech where the koolaid is called out for what it is and nobody pretends to be happy. It's an island of sincerity.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#192

Post by Simulacra »

tacitusarc wrote: post #71
CryptoPunk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>. It's a place where jobs are hard to come by, so maybe Amazon offers something the desperate, the poor, and the struggling something they can't get elsewhere. If you make it illegal to provide bad jobs, those jobs will not be substituted one-for-one for good jobs. That's not how an economy works. You're only hurting low-skilled workers by mandating higher minimum work standards. Responding to below: Yes, every so-…

This is a very tidy theoretical argument, but in practice you don't build a warehouse in a rural area along a shipping route then just abandon it when the community unionizes. Companies stick around for as long as they can possibly make a return on that investment, even if it means paying the people at the top less or decreasing margin to comply with union demands. And yeah, unions can go too far, but Amazon warehous…

Walmart closed stores in Canada that unionized. Why wouldn't Amazon close a warehouse? Seems easier to close a warehouse than an entire brick and mortar store.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/10/business/worldbusiness/wa...

Union participation is very tricky. It's supposed to be voluntary, but there is evidence that those who don't join the union are denied employment, and advancement. The problem with unions is that they're never really voluntary. I would hate to see the unions of old that used violence to force people to join; or for a more recent example, card check initiatives to make the vote be non confidential.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#193

Post by ahepp »

Meph504 wrote: post #138
ahepp wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can unions lose their incentive to serve workers? It's a collective body of the workers. When workers are owners, incentives are aligned. If you're talking about union leadership being beholden to management, that is an issue unions often have, but I don't think it is relevant here. I'm saying, create a union trust fund with 25% of the company's stock. It pays out dividends to all union members equally (not a slu…

Do you suppose that the union will raise the funds to aquire 25% or that the workers would take a pay cut to offset this? Or should a business owner give up a quarter of their company just so that the employees do the jobs they are compensated for? And ownership can easily present a conflict of interest even when spread out. So now 25% compensation is based on this buy in, if a business unit is doing poorly and has b…

How the union acquires their stake is a fair question which could be answered a lot of different ways. It can simply be considered a part of employee compensation. This is normal for software engineers (RSUs). The union might get a loan to purchase a stake. I worked for a company that transitioned from private to employee owned, it's not an insurmountable problem by any means.

Unless I'm seriously misunderstanding you, what you're calling a "conflict of interest" is literally my entire point.

It is a good thing that the union has an incentive to balance the interests of workers with the interests of the overall company.

If the company needs to cut jobs to be competitive, it is a good thing that the union has a stake in both sides of the issue. That way they will be incentivized to work towards a solution that is fair to the workers, and profitable for investors.

It's the exact situation we all face every day. I like the taste of donuts. I know that if I eat them all the time, I'll get fat. Because my stomach and brain have a "conflict of interest", I make choices that balance short term and long term pleasure. If every donut I made got somebody else fat, then they would be in trouble, because I might like the taste of donuts more than I care about their health.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#194

Post by bayindirh »

cudgy wrote: post #188
bayindirh wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be brutally honest, I have great respect who work at manual jobs, work at shifts, work at weekends. In general who work hard, a lot and in unconventional hours. I try to be extra nice to these people, try to release the burden on them, when I can. When chatting with my SO, we sometimes talk about these people and how bad I feel about their circumstances. I want to reiterate that I think that they need to earn more…

Have you ever worked a hard labor job? Do you expect never to have to? “They” might be you one day.

I haven't worked in full time labor job, however I helped or worked with laborers on volunteering basis. OTOH, just because I worked as a volunteer, I didn't work less when compared to them.

Similarly, on my current job, I have worked off-site, in hazardous sites, in off-hours (including all-nighters), in movement restricted conditions (think as soft imprisonment inside a building) or extremely stressful circumstances. These weren't "Oh, there's a deadline, so let's crunch!" stuff. It was against all odds, against the clock rescue jobs where nobody including your teammates were believing that it's possible, but we (me and a friend) have prevailed.

On the hardware mounting stuff, it was not again "let's playfully install" this stuff too. 100+ servers, left in boxes in front of the building. Carry, unbox, install rails, mount, make all the cabling (incl. electricity, from distribution boxes if req'd) and make them work, in 2 days most.

Yesterday, I was carrying servers to make some part replacements on them.

I never expect not to become one of these laborers. I never think of them as servants or invisible people. On the contrary, they are forming the backbone of some of the stuff that we never see consciously. These systems become invisible because of their hard work. They deserve a lot of respect.

Trash is picked up 1am in my street. I always think of the man, their families and circumstances.

Similarly, when I go to a carrier's office, I try to prepare all my answers and papers before to take their time less (they're literally drowning in packages to ship, so if I'm faster, they can finish their other work faster). I actively try not to reflect myself onto them since they see hundreds of people every day. I try not to be one of the people which makes them feel like a useless/replaceable cogs.

Just because I can play with a lot of cutting edge servers, not sweat everyday and wear my body down to earn a bit of money, it doesn't mean that I can not or don't want to understand and romanticize the burden they're going through.

Similarly just because I have a nicer job, it doesn't mean that all my friends or people I know and care are in the same circle or in higher places.

Just because I know how to manage an OS and write high performance code, it doesn't mean I live isolated in my high castle.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#195

Post by bayindirh »

cudgy wrote: post #187
chordalkeyboard wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which reflects the relative scarcity of people who can work in warehousese vs. people who can do what he does.

The issue was comparing suffering. If one makes 7 times more than another, they only have to put up with it 1/7th the amount of time before earning enough to tell their employer to screw off. Hard to feel as sorry for the person making much more money.

That resentment is harmful. It's built on prejudice that the one earning more money is looking down to person with lower income, and it's not always true.

Also, I still do not agree on earning sevenfold with 1/7 amount of effort (a 49 fold difference). Neither being a sysadmin or a developer is that easy when a single click of your mouse can affect research of 500 people who have deadlines.

It's not "just a walk in the park" when you're working with a lot of projects with deadlines, entering meetings and try to finish everything on time and not being able to see straight due headaches induced by overloading yourself and sleeping 3-4 hours continuously.

No job is easy, they're different. All of them worthy of respect. Also it's always greener on the other side.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#196

Post by cudgy »

bayindirh wrote: post #194
cudgy wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever worked a hard labor job? Do you expect never to have to? “They” might be you one day.

I haven't worked in full time labor job, however I helped or worked with laborers on volunteering basis. OTOH, just because I worked as a volunteer, I didn't work less when compared to them. Similarly, on my current job, I have worked off-site, in hazardous sites, in off-hours (including all-nighters), in movement restricted conditions (think as soft imprisonment inside a building) or extremely stressful circumstance…

Sounds like you definitely appreciate the efforts of manual labor and even have some manual labor as part of your job.

I agree that there are other factors (far more important ones) than just job/earnings. For example, a star developer making millions with a terminally ill spouse or child would easily trade places with manual laborer if doing that made a difference in their outcome. Silly example but it does illustrate how money is really not at the top of everyone’s list.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#197

Post by Meph504 »

ahepp wrote: post #193
Meph504 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you suppose that the union will raise the funds to aquire 25% or that the workers would take a pay cut to offset this? Or should a business owner give up a quarter of their company just so that the employees do the jobs they are compensated for? And ownership can easily present a conflict of interest even when spread out. So now 25% compensation is based on this buy in, if a business unit is doing poorly and has b…

How the union acquires their stake is a fair question which could be answered a lot of different ways. It can simply be considered a part of employee compensation. This is normal for software engineers (RSUs). The union might get a loan to purchase a stake. I worked for a company that transitioned from private to employee owned, it's not an insurmountable problem by any means. Unless I'm seriously misunderstanding yo…

This is still compensation, if they are being paid by the company for what the company is willing to offer, it would need to be paired with a cash reduction, or amount to a raise paid for by the company.

Unions typically already have a seniority over competency problems, this seems like something that would only really exacerbate the issue.

You also have to consider these are warehouse workers not software developers, there is a very high turn over rate, I don't think many of the warehouse workers would be interested in a vesting period before they saw anything from their RSU.

I also and not sure how this would work in a PLA multi-union site, lets not forget that the truck drivers, electricians, and many others already have their unions, and in my experience once a place has a labor union onsite, they want supporting employees to be union also.

And I think we will have to agree to disagree on conflict of interest.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#198

Post by Meph504 »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #148
Meph504 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe there is a language thing here buy you said you are on an hourly contract? Are you employed by this company as a full time employee, or are you a contractor? In the U.S. at least, this is a night and day difference so I guess that is why I am trying to get clarification on that.

I’m an employee, but my hours aren’t set. I can work no hours or forty in a week. I was a contractor before, but this arrangement made it easier to add other forms of compensation besides wages to our agreement. It’s an atypical arrangement.

I don't think given the info you've presented here, you can fairly make a comparison of union vs non.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#199

Post by bayindirh »

cudgy wrote: post #196
bayindirh wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't worked in full time labor job, however I helped or worked with laborers on volunteering basis. OTOH, just because I worked as a volunteer, I didn't work less when compared to them. Similarly, on my current job, I have worked off-site, in hazardous sites, in off-hours (including all-nighters), in movement restricted conditions (think as soft imprisonment inside a building) or extremely stressful circumstance…

Sounds like you definitely appreciate the efforts of manual labor and even have some manual labor as part of your job. I agree that there are other factors (far more important ones) than just job/earnings. For example, a star developer making millions with a terminally ill spouse or child would easily trade places with manual laborer if doing that made a difference in their outcome. Silly example but it does illustra…

> Sounds like you definitely appreciate the efforts of manual labor and even have some manual labor as part of your job.

Thank you. I really appreciate them. Yes, manual labor is a part of our job and we (as the group) do not whine about that. On the contrary, we like the thing TBH.

> For example, a star developer making millions with a terminally ill spouse or child would easily trade places with manual laborer if doing that made a difference in their outcome.

That's not a silly example. It's spot on. I did similar choices (not drastic as the example, and luckily not based on health issues). Rejected higher pay or prestigious titles or shiny companies to be able to stay closer to my family and people I love, to be able to live a simpler and more free life.

I'm not a money oriented person. I do this job because I like computers, I worked a lot and I was definitely lucky up to a certain extent.

However as I said, I don't keep my job as a crown or title about myself to pretend to be more precious and important than other people. We're equal on this little blue dot and everyone and everything deserve respect IMHO.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#200

Post by steve_adams_86 »

Meph504 wrote: post #198
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an employee, but my hours aren’t set. I can work no hours or forty in a week. I was a contractor before, but this arrangement made it easier to add other forms of compensation besides wages to our agreement. It’s an atypical arrangement.

I don't think given the info you've presented here, you can fairly make a comparison of union vs non.

Given my current position, I suppose not - but I’ve been in a union and my partner has never not been in a union. I have other family members in unions. It’s a topic I’m close to and very interested in. I see no reason I can’t weigh in on it.
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