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Local rules instead of global censorship

redecentralize.org

191–200 of 221 posts

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#191
post #58

I believe the premise of the title. But the main question should be: why? And the article does not really answer that, well beyond censorship. I think the reason why centralization is a danger to democracy, is because of lobbying. Lobbying is much easier in a centralized power structure. See how much lobbying goes on in and around the power centers of this world: DC, Brussels, London. Lobby is power for money, democr…

> And the article does not really answer that, well beyond censorship

Democracies are incompatible with censorship.

> Currently lobbies have more power in the decision process than voters (any political sciences professor will agree). So democracy is a hollow word, or worse: a facade, a lie.

I agree that lobbies have far more power than citizens, and that this is a problem. However, maybe I'm misreading you, but it seems like you might be implying that since we don't have democracy anyway, censorship is fine? Of course, that's not true; we don't want to actively invest in preventing ourselves from getting back to something we can meaningfully call "democracy" by way of legitimizing censorship. Again, probably not your intended meaning, but I wanted to address it anyway.

While we're talking about corporations having too much power, let's talk about social media companies--they can influence our society directly. They don't have to pay people to petition congress on their behalf; they can pay Twitter and Facebook for access (think "Social Dilemma"). Indeed, they have so much power that we were concerned circa 2017 that the Russians were able to indirectly use their influence over us to corrupt the 2016 POTUS election; how much more influence must Twitter and Facebook (and now Chinese-owned TikTok) have over our democracy given that they have direct access to those algorithmic levers? The super rich can now lobby and pay Twitter/Facebook/etc in order to pass their policies.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree with such a broad statement covering a period of, what, 600 years. Neither do I agree with the premise that leaving small communities alone, not having the populace or these communities a say in larger affairs, and limiting access to te community decisions to a select few people to be more democratic than our current system.

> broad statement covering a period of, what, 600 years not only was it long period but the Middle Ages are only ever brought up by people educated by a Western/ized idea of history. My point stands because we would never hear of systems that "worked" in a decentralized way because required power structures would have never been in place for them to leave any impact that people will feel should be noted in the histor…

While I'm personally a big fan of zomia, it should be noted that it's received a lot of criticism and has been notoriously hard to operationalize. There are probably less controversial examples to use here.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#193
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent didn't call Finland socialist, just said "more socialist". If one considers "Capitalism" and "Socialism" as the two extremes of an economic organization continuum (which is reasonable), Finland is indeed "more socialist" (or better yet, less capitalist) than the US.

Europeans often follow the classical definition of socialism: non private ownership of means if production. Things like so socialist market economies without state regulation thereof, for example, are theoretically conceivable. However, no European country is socialist in that sense. They have a lot of state involvement, or other public institutions, but they do have private property especially for means of productio…

Americans being confused is hardly something one can avoid.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#194
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a false dichotomy. Both can coexist.

Both can coexist, but you can do it in a more capitalism or more socialist way. Take e.g. healthcare. You can have all private healthcare (capitalist), a public and private sector coexisting (mixed), or exclusively public provider (socialist). And that's just a sector. You can have socialist healthcare but capitalist manufacturing. Every economy is mixed, but it can balance to one side or the other. (btw, all modern…

A big chunk of European systems are neither of those three, there are three axes, one is regulation, another the practice, and the final one is funding.

France for example, has mostly public funding, relatively heavy regulation (prices are fixed), but practice remains mostly private (though mixed in hospitals).

Switzerland has mostly private funding, even heavier regulation (insurance is mandatory and you can't be refused for pre-existing conditions, for example), and most practice is private (some public hospitals).

The big elephant in the room in US healthcare is that funding is 50/50, yet you can only benefit from the public part by being old or extremely poor.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#195
This piece does a good job reminding me of the larger context for what I've been feeling the past few weeks. Communications freedom is basically my main political issue, but I've had a really hard time caring about The Purge. It seems basically inevitable after what occurred.

What is happening with Big Tech is the same arc as many other instances of American exploitation - an industry springs up around some type of obvious exploitation, but everybody speaking out about it is ignored because they're preaching against business expedience (eg the handful of HN users talking about centralized webapps being a bad idea for the past decade, outnumbered by those with get rich quick startup dreams). Finally the externalities grow too great to ignore and the industry finds itself in an untenable position (financially and socially). The innovative exploiters retreat, while those that bought into the system fight to preserve the status quo, creating a pleb-vs-pleb political issue while the initial exploiters have simply moved on to creating a new manner of exploitation. Even slavery fits this general pattern, and we're still suffering its resulting mess today.

One question I've been pondering is if polarization/propagandization (foreign or domestic) is even possible at the scale we're observing without these centralized watering holes? It's really big tech "social media" that offers this promise of unsophisticated users connecting with socially-distant low-reputation nyms as if they are other good-faith individuals (ie non-Sybil), essentially filling in the companies own reputation in their place. High fanout bad faith actors (political demagogues) will always exist, but it takes an impedance-matching middle layer creating social proof to enable them at such scale. It feels like that would be harder to pull off if people were only connected to closer nodes by default. Although this is probably a hypothetical question now that such structure has already been created.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> broad statement covering a period of, what, 600 years not only was it long period but the Middle Ages are only ever brought up by people educated by a Western/ized idea of history. My point stands because we would never hear of systems that "worked" in a decentralized way because required power structures would have never been in place for them to leave any impact that people will feel should be noted in the histor…

While I'm personally a big fan of zomia , it should be noted that it's received a lot of criticism and has been notoriously hard to operationalize. There are probably less controversial examples to use here.

(as you might be able to tell) this is of great interest to me so if you have any reading recommendations I'd appreciate them (thanks).

some of the people (other than Scott) who influenced my thinking on this would be:

Berger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_L._Berger (especially http://perflensburg.se/Berger%20social-construction-of-reali...)

Jacques Ellul https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSoci... (also Propaganda)

and Nassim Taleb (e.g. his view on Switzerland) ...

also I'm admittedly thin on anthropological reading (still have Agner Fog's book on my list since ages: https://www.agner.org/cultsel/warlike_peaceful.pdf)

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing a deadly coup attempt and a direct attack against the representatives and the VP himself in the US capitol the day that the election results were certified by the Houses with random protests?

> Comparing a deadly coup attempt and a direct attack against the representatives and the VP himself in the US capitol the day that the election results were certified by the Houses with random protests? No, comparing some random people getting into a government building in protest, being basically tame inside, and business continuing as usual the very next day (or same?). That was a "coup"? What was the plan to esta…

In the unlikely event that your post isn't immediately removed by the moderators, I just want to add that it is obvious that nobody on the left actually honestly believe the over-the-top hysterical nonsense they have been spouting the past 2 weeks.

Ask them to explain, if these were organized far right militants trying to overthrow the government in the most heavily guarded city in the world, in a building that has it's own heavily armed police force, how come they didn't bring guns?

The left are the ones actually carrying out a coup against democracy, by using the chaos and confusion caused by a pointless protest that spiraled out of control.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#198
post #120

Counterpoint: Here in Germany there is relatively little centralization. For example, the government could not implement country wide corona measures, which in the end meant that much less was accomplished compared to centralized countries such as France. In France, one can just close borders and announce curfews. In Germany, such measures always end up as the minimum consensus between 16 states. Frequently, federal…

To me this sounds like you made an excellent argument for more decentralization, not less.

- Germany vs France in regards to Corona: similar sized countries, yet I venture that Germany has been doing far better than France in dealing with the pandemic. Maybe it is because the local governors have a better idea of what are the real challenges of their regions than some bureaucrat sitting in Berlin?

- Bavaria takes too much money from the federal government: maybe that would be an argument to have less federal taxes and more to the state-level. Remove power from the central entity, and there will be less of an incentive/risk of abuse?

- EU: you say probably to something that every Euro-skeptic has been saying for decades already. People outside of the Germany/France/Italy circle are getting more and more tired of losing autonomy over their lives, business and even who they get to have as neighbors to someone in Brussels, who has more to gain by listening to lobbyists than their voters.

> there is at least the chance that the central governance actually represents all of the population.

No. Not at the scales that we talking about and not at this globalized world that we have. In today's world, all that central governance does is foment polarization in order to run divide-and-conquer of the people. Maybe (if you are lucky) you get some alternance of power so that no single group gets to be in control and some equilibrium gets to be established.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#199

Decentralization and deinstitutionalization is dangerous to Democracy. Uncheck conspiracy theories, QAnon bullshit, Parler boys, 4chan anonymity are all dangerous to public, intellectual discourse. Convince me. Your body has cancer, swift removal of it before it “decentralizes” is the only option. I would be in favor of actual decentralization: Being able to broadcast 50km radius on the internet and improving communi…

> If you want to broadcast to state level, you must have education, journalism rigor, and standup to scrutiny, have to explain inconsistencies or your role is revoked.

And make no mistake, what they mean in reality by the above is always the same, namely that "free speech" will mean you are freely allowed to repeat the talking points of the Party.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#200
post #14

Decentralization and deinstitutionalization is dangerous to Democracy. Uncheck conspiracy theories, QAnon bullshit, Parler boys, 4chan anonymity are all dangerous to public, intellectual discourse. Convince me. Your body has cancer, swift removal of it before it “decentralizes” is the only option. I would be in favor of actual decentralization: Being able to broadcast 50km radius on the internet and improving communi…

I have told people they must remember whatever they put in place will be available to the next government/president/administration. Allow politicians to censor? Well it will be available for for both Joe Biden as well as the next Republican president . This is why one needs to be careful.

From the looks of it, their plan seem to be to institute enough political repression that they won't have to worry about any next government/president/administration.
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