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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#191
Europeaners seem to think getting by is just fine. They're happy that they're hyper educated, that their kids are going to be hyper educated, that their healthcare is paid for, and they get lots of vacation. Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.)

Americans want their fair share of the pie, which will always lead to certain people making more and others making less. Compensation is more than just money to us. It's vacation, stock, better healthcare, expanded education resources and benefits, buying programs, etc... This can be both good and bad. I suspect you can find an endless list of rosy and dark examples to draw from. Most Americans would like to think of themselves as quite independent from the government, whether they want to admit it or not.

The value in risk and reward versus security and stability is just different. It's okay that they're different too. Personally, I believe letting people leave the US without monetary penalties so they can pursue cultures that more match their own values is the solution. I once thought that having a system setup so that people could switch places between countries might be beneficial, one that augments the current immigration system.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it's not a great way to raise the salaries of retail and restaurant workers. It's also a terrible way of providing healthcare. Ultimately it's more a question of supply and demand as to why US SWEs are paid so much.

The SWEs will buy more stuff and eat out more, increasing the demand for retail and restaurant workers. It does trickle down, but due to continuous influx (because qualification requirements are low) of new potential retail and restaurant workers you don't notice on an individual level but on a globalized level it matters because those new retail/restaurant workers have improved themselves.

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what that alludes to either. Germans and Italians save huge amounts of their income (typically, higher than the US). You still need to save for a pension in almost every European economy, one isn't given to you (state pensions in Europe, even in the UK, are contribution-based). Welfare systems in Europe are not redistributive like in the US, they are typically contributory (you get out what you put in).…

> You still need to save for a pension in almost every European economy Uh, no? Pensions are contribution based but that contribution comes from taxes on your salary. Far from me to say that the system is perfect but you basically just need to work. Welfare is absolutely not contributory in Europe, it wouldn't make sense as those who need public welfare the most are those that can contribute less. Some countries like…

> Uh, no? Pensions are contribution based but that contribution comes from taxes on your salary... Welfare is absolutely not contributory in Europe

This is just incorrect.

In Ireland, there is a contributory state pension [0] of up to €500 a week, which you are entitled to if you spent enough years in the workforce making tax contributions. There's also a means-tested non-contributory pension [1] of €237 per week which you are entitled to if you don't have other savings or income, such as the contributory pension. In addition to these, private pensions exist: basically savings vehicles with certain restrictions and certain tax advantages.

There's a similar two-tier system for unemployment assistance and certain healthcare entitlements. I understand many other European countries have similar arrangements, despite your assertion.

[0] https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_...

[1] https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#194

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

Soooo... You think this is how things should be?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#195
You should look at all salaries. Broadly US salaries are much higher across the board - whether in IT, finance, engineering, industry etc. So the question should be is how to raise salaries in Europe. Broadly, in economics salaries are tied to productivity. This is best captured by total factor productivity. So you would need to make economies more productive across the board. You can also generally predict the highest salaries with this. What is the most productive economy in Europe? Switzerland. Where are the highest salaries? Also Switzerland.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#196
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strategy doesn’t scale.

Salaries are only raised when workers are chasing the money, why else would companies raise salaries? All threads about salaries in Europe are full of people telling us how happy they are with what they got, that is the wrong attitude if you want things to change. Edit: To expand further, think like this: The easier it is for companies like Google to hire good talent in Europe the more they will hire talent in Europe…

I agree with you, but moving to Switzerland is not a very good solution to achieve that. Salaries are high there only because the cost of living is much higher than neighboring countries. The country is very small, so demand for workers is not high. Also, Switzerland is not part of the EU, so the salary levels there have little influence on the salaries in neighboring Germany, France and especially Italy.

FAANG offices in the EU pay significantly less.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#197

Admittedly I don't know much about work relations in Europe but are SW engineers unionized there? A union could 1.)allow workers to aggressively collectively bargain for more money 2.)add additional requirements (licensure, education requirements, etc) to keep down the supply of labor. I'm not saying such a move would be good for everyone, but it could be good for those who become members of the union.

Worked in several highly unionized companies.

You get a lot of devs with 20+ years of experience with very respectable wages (in European terms) who are not able to implement fizz buzz by themselves within any reasonable timeframe.

The younger devs, although considerably more skilled due to more recent education, aren't encouraged and mostly lack ambition, all they have to do (and can do) to make a good income is to hang around until they have 20+ years of experience.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#198
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inequality in Canada is substantially lower than in America (and is on par with Australia, and between Fr and Se). This is evidenced in their Gini coefficients. [1] - Gini for SE is 0.25 - Gini for FR is 0.31 - Gini for CA is 0.33 - Gini for US is 0.48 - Gini for ZA is 0.65 I've also included South Africa for comparison, one of the least equal societies on earth. A photo of what a 0.65 Gini country looks like is here…

From your link, GINI of Canada and Tajikistan is the same or Finland and Azerbaijan. Totalitarian states like Belarus or Kazakhstan have one of the lowest GINIs in the world, now I question gini usefulness even more.

In totalitarian states, everyone is equally poor.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#199

While I think that lower salaries are a result of multiple factors, one interesting data point is that governments actively disincentivize high salaries for workers through taxation, and low salary requirements for visas. For example, the "high" salary tax income bracket starts at £50k in the UK [1] and at €54k in Germany [2]. More or less, these rates are similar across western Europe (except for Switzerland). In th…

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The salaries aren't low because of equality though. You're just shifting the high earners from the people doing the work to the managers of the people doing the work.

As far as my experience goes, managers make about the same, or less, as an engineer at a similar experience level. They may end up at a higher compensation level if far enough in the career ladder, but I don't think it's significant in the bigger picture. The average CEO earnings in the Netherlands, including bonuses, is only 5x-6x the average engineer salary.

So maybe the real answer to the question is that European tech companies are just not making a lot of money?
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