Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#191

Post by Havoc » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #186

Havoc wrote: post #182

Kinda surprised they're not buying Boeing 737 MAX for cargo. You'd imagine there would be some good deals to be had

Amazon buys retired planes from other airlines - like [1] built in 1991, flown by Quantas then Westjet, now used by Amazon; or [2] built in 1994, flown by Sobelair, then Vietnam Airlines then Air Europa then Kenya Airways then Nordwind Airlines then Atlas Air, now used by Amazon. The 737 MAX might be cheap, but it's not 25-30 year old plane cheap. [1] https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/boeing-767-300-n503az... [2…

>The 737 MAX might be cheap, but it's not 25-30 year old plane cheap.

That makes sense. However a newer plan also has a longer expected usage and likely lower fuel and maintenance cost.

So looking at absolute cost only doesn't really make sense.

Presumably Amazon crunched the numbers though

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#192

Post by mlazos » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

thepace wrote: post #42

I have been wondering about whether there is a limit to how much Amazon can grow in terms of number of industries they can expand into and also how big can they grow in each of those industries. At some point, there will obviously be attempts to create legislations to stop them from growing. Such legislative maneuvers will probably be rendered ineffective by intense lobbying. I think there has be change in consumer b…

I don’t think this sort of regulation would happen unless they meet the criteria for a monopoly and I’m not a lawyer but I don’t think Amazon meets these criteria. It has competitors in every market it is currently in. Walmart, Target, and Etsy are all competing retailers online and physically. Azure competes with AWS. The process here on out to beat profitable and large competitors to wield monopoly power is incredibly difficult. I don’t see a problem if they enter new industries to find more opportunities for growth, companies do this all the time.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#193

Post by kd913 » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

nickff wrote: post #16

kd913 wrote: post #11

I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both directions. Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east airlines. Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in logistics which can benefit the greate…

The A340, A380, 727, 747, and L-1011 existed because of the hub-and-spoke model, and the requirement for a minimum of three engines for transoceanic flights. The 777 was the harbinger of their doom, as it brought ETOPS with it. Somewhat tangentially, there is a (strong) argument that twin-engine aircraft are actually safer than three or four engine aircraft. First, they are at lower risk of having an engine problem (…

Looking at Maximum Take off-weight it appears that a 747 has almost double the MTOW of a 767.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliners_by_maximum_t...

I can imagine this being the case mainly because the calculation is assuming 1 engine failed.

Given this, and assuming an almost maximum payload, would there necessarily be scenarios here for the 747 to be more fuel efficient?

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#194

Post by travem » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #173

mkhalil wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you have some expierence. Would you mind elaborating on how one would enter this space, aquire supplies/products, examples of licensing deals. Even just some trusted resources would be fine. This fascinates me, as I have wondered how some sellers on Amazon (or eBay but no thanks) become so large just by reselling other people's things on Amazon -- at the same time Amazon is the one who really wants to…

> This fascinates me, as I have wondered how some sellers on Amazon (or eBay but no thanks) become so large just by reselling other people's things on Amazon -- at the same time Amazon is the one who really wants to be that middle man. All the evidence I see indicates Amazon does not want to be this middle man. Amazon wants to be the payment and platform middleman, that’s where all the profits lie due to infinite sca…

> They removed the ability to let you filter search results for items sold by Anazon.com years ago.

That feature is still available on the amazon.com site as I write this

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#195

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

travem wrote: post #194

lotsofpulp wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This fascinates me, as I have wondered how some sellers on Amazon (or eBay but no thanks) become so large just by reselling other people's things on Amazon -- at the same time Amazon is the one who really wants to be that middle man. All the evidence I see indicates Amazon does not want to be this middle man. Amazon wants to be the payment and platform middleman, that’s where all the profits lie due to infinite sca…

> They removed the ability to let you filter search results for items sold by Anazon.com years ago. That feature is still available on the amazon.com site as I write this

Where? I just searched for microSD card, and there is nowhere on the left side to filter by seller. There used to be an option where you could check mark which sellers you wanted to see offerings from.

I definitely remember 10+ years ago, being able to restrict searches to items sold by "Amazon.com" by clicking the check box. Then they gradually removed it for certain searches. Sometimes, the option to filter by Amazon.com would show up, and sometimes it wouldn't. I thought I was going crazy for a while. Then I realized what they were doing, and then in a few years they got rid of the option completely.

Not that it would make a difference anyway, since Amazon commingles inventory with other random sellers so you never know which supply chain you're actually getting the item from.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#196

Post by hansthehorse » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

chiph wrote: post #97

cosmodisk wrote: post #25

Here in the UK, Amazon dumped some of the largest last mile logistics companies and rolled out their own fleet of delivery vans.

A couple of years ago they ordered 20,000 Sprinters from Mercedes-Benz for the US delivery fleet. Previously, MB were selling about 27,000 yearly, so this one order tied up the factory for almost 9 months. https://www.trucks.com/2018/09/06/mercedes-benz-launches-pro... https://goo.gl/maps/V7DtAFqrYz7ZUTUg6

There is an Amazon distribution center a mile from my house. Every morning it's like bees leaving the hive with all the Sprinters leaving the lot.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#197

Post by cosmodisk » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

chiph wrote: post #97

cosmodisk wrote: post #25

Here in the UK, Amazon dumped some of the largest last mile logistics companies and rolled out their own fleet of delivery vans.

A couple of years ago they ordered 20,000 Sprinters from Mercedes-Benz for the US delivery fleet. Previously, MB were selling about 27,000 yearly, so this one order tied up the factory for almost 9 months. https://www.trucks.com/2018/09/06/mercedes-benz-launches-pro... https://goo.gl/maps/V7DtAFqrYz7ZUTUg6

I'm seeing these in London all over the place now too.They all electric.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#198

Post by chx » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #155

chx wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ryanair today is not what it was even five years ago -- they did transition to a much more customer friendly airline crowned in 2018 by a new baggage and boarding policy https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/new-bag-policy-from-novem... Just buy priority, it's 6 EUR , it's nothing. Their app is well designed and easy to use. You can contact them via chat and it's free. Ryanair is OK. Yes, you need to understand they wil…

I'm guessing they had exhausted the pool of people willing to put up with poor customer service and needed to offer a bit more to keep expanding.

Nope, Brussels ran out of patience and basically read the riot act to them. They had the choice of EU wide legislation making a bad dent in their profits or get their ... together.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#199

Post by Stevvo » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 12:55 AM UTC

paul_f wrote: post #187

Stevvo wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ryan are terrible and I do not fly with them because of it, but they are far from the worst. Chinese budget airlines like Spring Air have the hostesses talking through a megaphone trying to sell you shit for the entire flight. When the cockpit door opens at the destination, you can smell the cigarette smoke.

You are not Ryanair's customer. I don't think that bothers them.

The route I fly most often is served by both British Airways and Ryanair. After adding baggage and the extra cost of getting to London from Stansted instead of Heathrow, it consistently costs more to fly Ryanair.

It should bother them that their direct competitor is a better option for their target customer (budget conscious flyers), even if I am not that customer.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#200

Post by discodave » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

tidepod12 wrote: post #74

discodave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't "logistics as a service" pretty much what Fulfillment By Amazon is? There is a lot of crossover between FBA, and a UPS or FedEx, but it's not 100%. FBA is basically B2C, as opposed to B2B or C2C. Back during the "peak lockdown" of April/May 2020, a little birdie told me about some of the steps that Amazon was taking to give the warehouses and delivery network a break from the increased demand. In other words,…

>Logistics part of Amazon has expressed a desire to become the "4th flywheel" of Amazon I'm not surprised at all if this is the long term game plan. I'm curious though, what are the first three flywheels? AWS, retail sales, and what? Alexa/Kindle devices? Prime Video? Advertising? All of those seem like strong contenders but I'm not sure they really rival the AWS/retail arms (yet).

The three are: Prime, Marketplace (3rd party), AWS.

> After two decades of risk taking and teamwork, and with generous helpings of good fortune all along the way, we are now happily wed to what I believe are three such life partners: Marketplace, Prime, and AWS. Each of these offerings was a bold bet at first, and sensible people worried (often!) that they could not work. But at this point, it’s become pretty clear how special they are and how lucky we are to have them.

> With good execution and a bit of continuing good luck, Marketplace, Prime, and AWS can be serving customers and earning financial returns for many years to come.

From the Amazon 2014 letter to shareholders: https://s2.q4cdn.com/299287126/files/doc_financials/annual/A...

It's kinda interesting that Devices (Alexa/Kindle) and 1st party retail are not called out as flywheels. Advertising and Alexa are other candidates for the next flywheel I believe. I think the reason they're not there yet is that they're not self-sustaining, i.e. like Logistics, they're growing but their growth is driven by the other flywheels.