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GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

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Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#191

Entrusting your business to an american entity is the stupidest idea you could have thought about. Especially us europeans should not rely on American services at all.It's not worth it. American corporations are just as much a liability as their counterparts in China.

The top 33 "software and programming" companies by revenue in the world can be found below [0]. 28 of them are American. Two are in the EU. One is in the UK. One is in Australia. The last is Russian. One of the companies in the EU produces enterprise software almost no one on this website uses (SAP). The other is Dassault. In the US the top five companies are Microsoft, Oracle, ADP, Adobe, and Salesforce. If you incl…

While the US sure is dominant, there are dozens of software companies larger than those in that list, e.g. Zoho has about $5B revenue, Baidu $11B, Tencent $23B, Accenture $41B, ...

The list employs some particular filters (e.g. SaaS seems to be excluded) and heavily emphasizes market cap over revenue.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#192
post #110

So many dimensions come to play here. 1. There's the obvious legal aspect i.e. how these laws are framed and interpreted. 2. Then there's the geopolitical aspect. Is it fair to impose sanctions on Iran. 3. There's another aspect around GitHub policy that asks if an entire organization be banned for the location of one team member. 4. Finally, there's the aspect of relinquishing control. Your app development is on the…

> You have relinquished so much control, why be surprised if that stares you back in the face? We live in a market-based economy with highly specialized division of labor. The idea of "keeping control" of all our necessities and dependencies, is an archaic one. The system generally works, because we create sensible laws that foster trust, vet for partners who are trustworthy, and name-and-shame entities that violate…

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Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. You have a literal state actor backed with an army demanding money if you don't comply. I'll pick the legal way unless the profits I can make somehow outweigh the sanctions (legislators can make mistakes too) and there are no penal repercussions.

It is. We established this quite clearly in Nuremberg.

You're comparing state sanctioned killing and torturing with sanctioning people trading with each other.

The first one is a violent crime against individuals, the second one is basically a tax.

I'm against both but they carry a different weight.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot relate two different ideas by virtue of one tangentially common theme. It's common sense that most people are from the same country their parents are from, given what we know about immigration. Interning people based on predicting their behavior due to ancestry is a whole different ballgame.

> It's common sense that most people are from the same country their parents are from, given what we know about immigration. The legal concept you're referring to is called "ius soli". The legal concept which serves as a basis to determine someone's allegiance by their ancestry is called "ius sanguinis". [1][2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis So, no, it's not…

Those two rights deal with determining citizenship at birth.

The common sense idea deals with the probability of someone (already born) being of a certain citizenship given their parents' location.

Different ideas.

> The legal concept which serves as a basis to determine someone's allegiance by their ancestry is called "ius sanguinis"

Not allegiance, citizenship. Different, but similar concept again.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#195
post #110

So many dimensions come to play here. 1. There's the obvious legal aspect i.e. how these laws are framed and interpreted. 2. Then there's the geopolitical aspect. Is it fair to impose sanctions on Iran. 3. There's another aspect around GitHub policy that asks if an entire organization be banned for the location of one team member. 4. Finally, there's the aspect of relinquishing control. Your app development is on the…

> You have relinquished so much control, why be surprised if that stares you back in the face? We live in a market-based economy with highly specialized division of labor. The idea of "keeping control" of all our necessities and dependencies, is an archaic one. The system generally works, because we create sensible laws that foster trust, vet for partners who are trustworthy, and name-and-shame entities that violate…

A customer of mine use GitHub, Travis and Slack.

If GitHub is offline we can still setup a git server somewhere. I could offer my own for a quick startup. Mailing patches to each other, Linux kernel style, is not a viable backup plan. The cultural gap is too wide.

If Travis is down we can run tests locally.

We build the deployment artifact on one of our servers. If that one is down probably our production server is down too.

If Slack is down, ah, I was on vacation yesterday. I guess the fastest backup for us would be WhatsApp Web.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#197
Geolocation databases are frequently inaccurate, even at the country level of granularity!

I use a ISP in the Netherlands that was founded only recently, I and frequently encounter sites that think I'm in Dubai, which is apparently where the previous owner of my IP block was located.

Fortunately, the only problems this seems to cause for the moment are that I occasionally get geo-blocked by some sites' overly-aggressive firewall rules, and I get Twitter ads in Arabic.

But I shudder to think what might happen should the UAE find itself under sanction.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both you and the person you replied to are right. They are not mutually exclusive points. Famous example: MS Windows having a marketshare of 96% should not necessarily stop you from designing your business around linux.

Sure they are. Propose an EU or non-Chinese Asian alternative to AWS that is, say, 80% as efficient/effective. If that's not possible, then choosing AWS for your startup/scaling business is not the stupidest move you can make, assuming AWS fits your use case. "MS Windows having a marketshare of 96% should not necessarily stop you from designing your business around linux" But Windows doesn't have this kind of markets…

At this point it is kinda an open question whether using AWS/Azure/GCP for anything involving PII is even fully legal under EU/EFTA law. I know at least my employer is working towards having more options to jump ship at a moments notice these days.

I think EU/EFTA is large enough to enable the growth of at least one 80% offering given enough time. Or otherwise large enough as an economic bloc to force America to stricter legalisation so that they can use and depend on the American offerings.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#199
post #71

So many dimensions come to play here. 1. There's the obvious legal aspect i.e. how these laws are framed and interpreted. 2. Then there's the geopolitical aspect. Is it fair to impose sanctions on Iran. 3. There's another aspect around GitHub policy that asks if an entire organization be banned for the location of one team member. 4. Finally, there's the aspect of relinquishing control. Your app development is on the…

> Ironically, Git is a decentralized version control system. And Git is open source. Github is a US-registered company under MS. The US has a history of weaponizing its economic power. Stallman (RMS) was right once again.

I would go quite a step further than that. If this was not an unfortunate incident/mistake, then GitHub/Microsoft has become quite the active enforcer of US (legal) foreign policy.

If they do that within the US market, that might be justifiable. But in this particular case, GitHub appears to enforce US foreign policy on what appears to be a company on the EU market. Also in what to me appears to be a rather ruthless, totalitarian, maybe even draconian way.

I'm pretty certain that absent this US law within the EU market, this action is arbitrarily discriminatory, and very likely constitutes inflicting serious damage on another company without a legal basis (within the US, yes .. outside the US, no).

GitHub may find itself stuck, between adhering to US laws and laws elsewhere (in this case EU, but China is probably a good example too). Still, is ultimately is a choice for GitHub to offer their products on multiple markets. If they have issues with that, they are free to exit a particular market. It certainly is never a valid excuse to start violating law in any market outside whatever country your headquarter might be located.

Tangentially, this rather typical popular belief that US companies can simply absolve themselves from legal liability, just by crafting clever TOS/EULA that supposedly does just that, has always confused to me. It was always my understanding that you can not create contracts that violate laws. In most countries with a somewhat sane state of law, governments really do not like or tolerate when companies start essentially making their own law in parallel. But apparently you can rewrite (even basic) law in the USA, as long as you can somehow get both parties to agree on it. Be that by free will or coercion.

Maybe it's time, for other parts of the world to no longer put up with this kind of bullshit, and demand that US companies actually adhere to the laws (and legal protections) that exist within their markets, or be free to buzz off and only operate on the US market alone.

With US foreign policy becoming increasingly self-serving, legally dubious, and in some case downright insane, having internationally operating companies enforcing those policies is becoming a seriously risky proposition for anyone outside the USA.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#200
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ironically, Git is a decentralized version control system. And Git is open source. Github is a US-registered company under MS. The US has a history of weaponizing its economic power. Stallman (RMS) was right once again.

But Github is reason why git is popular ...

Github sure contributed to the popularity, but I remeber distinctly as Git came out and how it took off like rocket. Git was a "killer app" from it's day of inception and everyone I knew switched their source control to it in late 2005 early 2006. It was a game changer to say the least. Github jumped on a already rolling bandwagon and left me ans many people I knew wondering why the hell you would need to host your projects there. (I am still a little bit puzzled but came to accept it as useful)
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