Live data from Hacker News

‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

nytimes.com

191–200 of 717 posts

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#191

From Coinbase's preemptive rebuttal[1]: "we hired an external consultant in August of this year who specializes in data science and diversity and inclusion to cull through all of our historic data related to diversity ... and conduct a high volume of interviews with employees representing all background, functions, and tenures to understand the employee experience. The independent investigation concluded that there w…

If you've never done this sort of thing before: there's a huge market for these "external consultants". Their unstated job (and reputations) are as whitewashing firms. You hire them to ensure there is "no evidence" of anything done wrong. The primary purpose is to create a credible defense in lawsuits but PR purposes are also common. Firms that find problems suddenly see their business dry up because most companies d…

To repeat the grandparent, what else can they do?

Many of the "issues" bought up in this article aren't even problematic. It says John Russ left because Armstrong took public stance that he wanted Coinbase to focus on crypto space stuff.

Coinbase's stance there is fair, reasonable and moral. It is desirable that some companies just do what it says on the tin. If Russ had a reason for quitting that was race-related then the NYT didn't uncover it.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#192
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just went back to double check the article and am actually not certain how you are getting to the number 75%. 11 employees cited a complaint to HR according to the article. Where are you getting the denominator for total number of black employees in 2019? There's a data mismatch between the CB blog post and the article. CB cites that only 2-3 formal complaints were filed iirc. 11 employee complaints matches pretty cl…

The first sentence of the second paragraph of the article. >The 15 people worked at Coinbase, the most valuable U.S. cryptocurrency start-up, where they represented roughly three-quarters of the Black employees at the 600-person company. "[R]oughly three-quarters" implies there were likely either 19 or 21 employees Black employees at the company since 20 would be exactly three-quarters. I was just using 75% and 20 em…

> Keep in mind that simply complaining about something to a coworker isn't the same thing as "filing" a complaint.

It really depends on the HR department, too. In most, reporting something as seemingly straightforward as an overt sexual assault will raise the question "how do you want to proceed." But they might not lay out what your actual options are -- or worse, they might just offer an ear and won't offer to act unless you demand it. Sometimes, they'll make it quite clear that a complaint will be a huge pain in the ass for everybody involved, especially the person reporting. HR should understand that there can be direct and indirect blow-back; that reporting misbehavior (especially of management, or worse, HR) can have both real and perceived consequences for the person reporting. HR departments cannot, generally, be trusted to police themselves if you can't go to them or above them, the only other option is the labor relations board. So much of the time, marginalized employees will either suck it up and endure the abuse, or quietly leave to keep their reputation intact.

So if anything, I see the discrepancy of 3 official reports and 11 complaints as a weak signal about how seriously HR takes complaints about racism at the company.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#193
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've never done this sort of thing before: there's a huge market for these "external consultants". Their unstated job (and reputations) are as whitewashing firms. You hire them to ensure there is "no evidence" of anything done wrong. The primary purpose is to create a credible defense in lawsuits but PR purposes are also common. Firms that find problems suddenly see their business dry up because most companies d…

To repeat the grandparent, what else can they do? Many of the "issues" bought up in this article aren't even problematic. It says John Russ left because Armstrong took public stance that he wanted Coinbase to focus on crypto space stuff. Coinbase's stance there is fair, reasonable and moral. It is desirable that some companies just do what it says on the tin. If Russ had a reason for quitting that was race-related th…

They can do nothing, once someone calls you 'racist' you're racist for good.

I don't know the details of the story, but the thing is with baseless accusations of racism is that it's a perfect slander, one can never prove innocence once proclaimed guilty.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you're not aware of the back story. Coinbase was one of the few large companies that did not go all woke over the George Floyd incident. The identity politics activists in the company took offence to this and demanded management make a statement. When management refused to bend the knee the activists made allegations of racism and took them to the nytimes.

I feel like someone needs to put a big flag at the top of the comments section asking people to at least skim the article. Maybe the problem is the paywall? Anyway, the people they spoke to all left the company prior to George Floyd's death.

It's the reason the article comes up now, and not last year.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#195
post #143
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insulting people wasn't my intention, but I have some uncharitable views of the HN community members that cry meritocracy and find founders blameless. You are correct that the people in the article that either filed complaints, or spoke with the New York Times risked repercussions, but not all of the folks the Times spoke with are identified. People were willing to talk, but not necessarily on the record, or to be id…

>You are correct that the people in the article that either filed complaints, or spoke with the New York Times risked repercussions, but not all of the folks the Times spoke with are identified. People were willing to talk, but not necessarily on the record, or to be identified. That is because they are fearful of reprisal, based on past experiences and observations. You're arguing against a straw man here. I did not…

> You're arguing against a straw man here. [...] There's nothing even like that.

And you are arguing in bad faith; there are several parts of the article that detail exactly what you are looing for.

In the second paragraph, the article indicates that 11 of the folks who left notified HR or their managers.

In the third paragraph one of the named victims states she made several reports.

In the sixth paragraph 5 on the record employees and 18 off the record employees, and internal documents and recordings are claimed as evidence.

Despite this, Coinbase only reports three official complaints in the year many of these folks left.

Coupled with the stream of hot garbage that Brian Armstrong has proposed trying to position as being "Mission Focused", in the middle of a pandemic, massive, ongoing riots, and political instability just illustrates how utterly tone deaf the leadership at Coinbase is.

> Susan Fowler blew up Uber with a single blog post.

Yes, you correct. You also have to look at the facts; Susan is an excellent writer, and based on her book, she already had some measure of experience speaking truth to power. Coupled with the fact that she was already recognized as a talented engineer and a published author, it's not surprising her blog post was as well received as it was.

Susan also wrote about her experience with her own voice and had receipts to show how bad it was. I certainly don't want to down play the issues that women in tech face, but it's also well known that people of color frequently have different social and economic circumstances than white or white-presenting folks (and it's not me saying this -- she calls out in her book the casual anti-semitism she faced from folks who didn't know she is Jewish).

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#196
post #189
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ignore that an exception was made for the single White employee Let's not ignore that this exception is being positioned as being based on skin color (racist motives), not job role, tenure, exceeding expectations, caregiving responsibilities, or any other plausible reason for an exception. That's a laughable, yet dangerous take. Incredibly inflammatory and accusatory. Either Coinbase is an incredibly racist and bla…

As I have said elsewhere in this thread, these harmless explanations for something that can be perceived as discriminatory are perfectly reasonable when there are only a few isolated incidents. However their believability has an inverse relationship to the number of accusations. When there is a clear pattern of behavior, as their is in this instance, it gets harder and harder to argue it is anything other than discri…

It does not work that way (logically). Listing a 100 weak, baseless arguments is a debating tactic to confuse your opponents, not allowing them to address and debunk specifics (and if they still manage: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"). It also creates the appearance of smoke.

More likely: There is a activist political trend now, that has picked up a lot of steam. In that political view, society is racist, and whites at best profit from this, at worst contribute to this. Anything bad happening to a person of color is then used to accuse the racist system, or even individuals, of a heinous act, to force their hands to adopt your view, or deplatform them and their criticism as an obstacle to growth of your movement, for personal gain, as revenge for inequality, or as a coping mechanism.

Far easier to argue/reason/imagine that, than that Coinbase makes WFH exceptions due to skin color, or that black employee are correctly assessing skills and experience of co-workers and correctly identifying racism on skin color, when passed over for a promotion. And if you don't believe that racism is really a driver at Coinbase, the correct course seems to be to attack these allegations for what its actually doing, not to support it by falling victim to this poor-argument overload and resigning because it is too hard, or too sensitive, or too taboo, to call out this damaging and horrific behavior.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#197
Core to attitudes like Coinbase's (as described in the article) the theory that their only responsibility is profit for their shareholders.

IMHO, that theory is like many others today: It's attractive - it simplifies everything and even makes it quantifiable - but does not stand up to a moment's scrutiny.

Almost everything Coinbase has comes from their community: Liberty; peace; political functionality and stability; economic stability; the rule of law; property rights; the free market; the wealth of the market they sell to; the education and wealth of employees, customers, and partners (including the massive public education and healthcare systems - imagine how their company would survive Coronavirus without the public health system and eventual free vaccine); the physical infrastructure of housing, roads, food, power, etc., all kept functioning and safe; the incredible technology stack they build upon, from mathematics to basic literacy to electricity to materials to more proximate tech (the Internet, Web, TCP/IP, and of course the cryptocurrency technology). No matter what Coinbase does, they add only a sliver on top of what's come before.

It's just an absurd, transparent rationalization for selfishness to try to justify being a parasite, for not contributing to it and being responsible for making it work. Our community is us; nobody else will make it work. And it's sociopathic to say that, about part of our community, 'I don't care what happens to African-Americans'.

But being a sociopath and buying into this transparently false argument has become trendy and admired by a vast swath of powerful people in American business, as if ignoring problems will solve them. I used to wonder if they really were smarter than others, but recently I've concluded that they follow the herd and are easily manipulated as much as other people are (and I could have seen it earlier in financial bubbles, etc.). And as they've followed the herd in disparaging liberalism and postmodernism, rather than thinking critically about them, they've unilaterally disarmed themselves, willingly discarded the tools that would protect them from being deceived, confused, and led.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#198
post #177

> ... an “all star” culture, with mostly young white and Asian men. Up until yesterday I was very confused at how a tech company could be accused of racism while simultaneously having a (presumably) vast over-representation of Asians who - to the surprise of some - are a minority. I have since learned [0] that there are literally a large group of people who have redefined "racism" to "unequal distribution of privileg…

You can be accepting of one race and still be racist against another. Racism means discrimination against a particular group or groups. It's not mutually exclusive, you don't get a free pass for thinking Asians are great while still persecuting Black people. So you're the one redefining the meaning of the word.

No, he's defining the meaning as you put it, or compatibly with it. And taking the claims in the article at face value -- not people's feelings, but the specific facts asserted -- it's clear Coinbase hasn't been persecuting black people.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#199
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can go two ways: 1. Coinbase has real problems of discrimination 2. Coinbase is being targeted at a smearing campaign, for not playing ball with the ideology of de-jure of some circles. It is kinda like a repeat of 2003: "if you are not with us (for the Iraqi war), then you are with the terrorist" mantra of conservative circles to justify their war. The truth, is probably somewhere in between. Also, NYT has become…

If there were important details that were omitted, Coinbase had the opportunity to surface them in their widely-publicized pre-emptive rebuttal. Also, the "if you're not with us, you're with them" mantra rests on the assumption that supporting the status quo means furthering terrorism/racism/whatever. In 2003 that was provably false given that there was no link between Iraq and Al Qaeda and no evidence of Saddam's su…

They did:

1. They are not mentioning that one reason is that a team had transfered regions/states, and that might be the main cause of attrition on that team, and not the actual treatment.

2. In a previous article, NYT failed to mention at all that Coinbase had provided severance of 6 months (which is very generous). NYT made it seems as these employees were forced out the company and lelft out in the streets

a) Omitting key details, is a very malicious type of journalism, and NY Times has been doing that for a while.

b) Also, NYTimes has been engaging in a smearing campaign against tech, since 2012, when they realized that new tech media companies are their direct competitor, and their old business is about to be disrupted. Again, this is just a journal doing a smear campaign against their direct competitors...

c) Most news organizations have been ramping up 'click-bait' type of stories to build narratives that are as controversial as possible, as it is good for their viewership stats, and ultimately their wallets.

If you believe the 'follow the money' mantra, it is very reasonable to believe that NY Times is very biased, and untrustworthy. Someone might say it is cynical, but the fact that they are omitting details, makes them very suspect in their motivations.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can think of contexts Yes that's what was asked; which ones ? > especially when n=15(if this was a statistical study on insulin response to artificial sweeteners, people would be saying the sample size is too small to draw conclusions) And those people would be wrong. It's incorrect to dismiss a study based on sample size without a discussion of significance and effect size in the context of the data. Moreover I…

Okay - one context is where one department has a large number of black people, and that department is defragged for purely business reasons to a different office across the country. Most people never choose the relocation package, and so a big chunk of black employees end up quitting. That's the event that triggered 8 black employees of the 15 who left as I understand it from the article. > what are your priors on wh…

But this question assumes that the root cause of the problem is that Coinbase has a disproportionately high number of "bad apples." To me that's exactly backwards; it seems much more likely that institutional culture tolerates and even encourages racism.
Post reply on HN