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Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

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Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#191

Post by mcjkrw »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #24
joeberon wrote: post #14

I also highly recommend mindfulness meditation to reduce fear of death and improve quality of life

For at most, 11/12 people. For some folks, it makes anxiety or depression worse than when they started. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2251840-mindfulness-and... .

Having had some bad depression and anxiety for over a year, I have tried to do some mindfulness, and I couldn't do it. It didn't have a good effect on me, although maybe I have not practiced it long enough.

However, zazen (zen meditation) saved my life. After a few months of dedicated practice my mental wellbeing was better than ever. I practiced a lot, and on top of doing formal zazen at some 1h - 2h per day, I tried to carry on the practice in physical daily activities like walking, in the gym, doing house work and so on. This is not to say it was easy, but I had nothing to lose basically. I didn't know if it would help me or worsen my condition, I just took a leap of faith. And like I said, just after a few months I have started to experience good effects, I was doing zazen like I had a gun to my head, I either solve these issues or my life is over. However after some 6 months, when my problems disappeared I got sloppy with the practice and the problems soon re-appeared, and when I re-started my practice, I was cocky and delusional about it.

It took me another year to figure this out, but since then things are pretty stable. If I ever get bad anxiety, I can eliminate in some 20 minutes, but it just happens less and less often. If I start feeling depressed, or have depressive thoughts - I have basically a hardwired reaction to cut that off - it's like what I was doing was automated (have shitty thoughts -> focus on zazen and stop thinking, absorb the pain). And that too, happens less and less often. And of course, I still do zazen 1h every day, and try to stay present and engaged in daily activities and cut any useless mind wandering. It's nowhere near perfect and I have a lot of work to do, but anxiety and depression is not something I have to bother with anymore, and I'm very thankful for that and feel like I don't have the right to complain about anything.

The reasoning for why it worked so well - I think - is pretty simple. The problems I had with depression and anxiety were problems with my physiology and nervous system alignment. Being a programmer, I spent a lot of time in the intellectual world, eventually I got locked in and imprisoned in my head. I didn't have a sharp perception of the outside, everything had to first go and be filtered by the thinking mind, I was in a fog and I was kinda dead in the body. And my thinking mind was running wild, I think I have had some sort of OCD as well. This was a pretty low level of existence and this state of things gives plenty of room to welcome anxiety and depression. I also started to get somewhat socially awkward, which further contributed to the depression and it was on overall downward spiral.

Now with zazen I could fight back. I could cool off the thinking mind effectively, and it didn't take long to start seeing beyond the fog. With this I also could develop basic focus abilities, so I could further train my physiology. Little by little, I could unlock more and more of "the nervous system real estate", took control and feel of my body, and that eventually improved my ability to feel emotions.

Be aware - there are risks. My practice wasn't all flowers, there is such a thing in zen called "makyo" which are hallucinary sesnsations. Like I said, I had nothing to lose, and just took my chances despite fear. I had experienced a bit of makyo, but it was nothing that bad. The important thing in zen practice is to have faith in the long-term view and allow short term pain. For me the most dangerous thing was trying to interpret zen intellectually, which I have did to some extent, and the result was that my practice was broken - I was thinking I was practicing rather than actually practicing - it also has caused a worse comeback of depression - trying to interpret some of the zen teachings intellectually contribute to that 'life pain' thing, at least it did for me. So there could be some risks of course, just like with any unconventional way to do things, but the journey, the lessons and the long term reward could be well worth it.

If you are interested, check "3 Pillars of Zen". There are detailed information on how to practice. Also be aware of some of the esoteric stuff and try to not take it too seriously. And the kind of zazen I would recommend is the : counting of breaths -> observing breaths -> shikantaza rather than zazen with a koan.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#192

Post by andai »

Rillen wrote: post #60
surfsvammel wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a left over from the eighties, as a response to the hippie areas romantic view of such drugs. I also believe that is why, for example, LSD is so stigmatized.

Imagine being a parent, never done LSD, not having a single clue what it can do and seeing your child becoming crazy, different, telling you things you can't comprehend and never had an desire to do so. I can see why it is frightening to many 'normal' people who are just living their lives, wanting to have a house, family, job, holidays and perhaps partially overwhelmed by all of that already anyway. I brought weed b…

I'd say a small dose of mushrooms (or LSD, but less experience there) is actually more likely to be a positive experience than weed edibles. Most people I know who have had bad experiences with drugs had it with edibles (or even just weed). Of course, due to the culture, weed is considered more "normal" in most countries than psychedelics, which is somewhat ironic in my experience.

To be clear, not implying that weed can't be wonderful or that you can't have a bad trip on psychedelics, just speaking from what I've experienced, seen and heard from others.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#193

Post by andai »

kortex wrote: post #89
Rillen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just might be the same thing as everything someone is doing more then others. Like building legos in your lego cave, going golfing every week etc. etc. Yes the experience of LSD is shattering your own reality but for me, i'm very conscious to not promote it in something everyone needs to experience. Having a flashback on the toilet 4 weeks later and thinking 'does it ever go away, am i imprisoned now, did i break…

Eh, if I were slowly dying over the course of weeks, and I were given 50/50 odds: "this wild ameliorate your mortality salience, or break your brain and make you crazy" I'd still take that. Heck, if you're worried about being crazy, you are probably less worried about death.

I have to say, I think you underestimate the suffering brought by insanity. Thankfully the odds are much better than that.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#194

Post by Rillen »

andai wrote: post #192
Rillen wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine being a parent, never done LSD, not having a single clue what it can do and seeing your child becoming crazy, different, telling you things you can't comprehend and never had an desire to do so. I can see why it is frightening to many 'normal' people who are just living their lives, wanting to have a house, family, job, holidays and perhaps partially overwhelmed by all of that already anyway. I brought weed b…

I'd say a small dose of mushrooms (or LSD, but less experience there) is actually more likely to be a positive experience than weed edibles. Most people I know who have had bad experiences with drugs had it with edibles (or even just weed). Of course, due to the culture, weed is considered more "normal" in most countries than psychedelics, which is somewhat ironic in my experience. To be clear, not implying that weed…

I tried both.

A psychedelic is in my opinion not an easy drug at all.

I don't think it is a normal experience for anyone, for the first time, to realize that what you see or what you believe can be influenced that easily.

While halos around light with lsd is nice to watch, its still a crazy thing. I never had visual impairment on that level from weed or alcohol.

Or when you see moving patterns on a wall, it does break one sence you as a human have a lot of trust for.

Our neighbor is an old lady who had cancer and apparently smells sometimes things which are not here. She doesn't want to be crazy and doesn't even accept that it can easily be nerve damage or whatever which makes her sometimes smell things which are not here.

Instead she thinks we and neighbors above her are trying to get her out of her flat. We are living in a very stable modern building, there is no realistic benefit of anyone to boot her out and walls are so thick, there is no noise issue at all. She still called the policies at least twice, had an expert here and was standing in our door twice angry and pissed of because we are creating that smell. It was 2 am in the morning and i was asleep.

Getting tired, not being able to walk well anymore, loosing concentration or forgetting things are apparently easy to understand and to accept as a human.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#195

Post by jfengel »

bigbubba wrote: post #164
akiselev wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Prohibition was driven primarily by organizations like the Methodist Church and the Anti-Saloon League which were explicit about their religious convictions so it's hard to argue that it's just a "just so" story.

Prohibition was also advanced by suffragettes who were tired of being beaten by drunk men. The truth is multifaceted. As I said, anti-fun was probably part of it, but taking that kernel of truth as a simple narrative is misguided. Furthermore anti-fun is not the sole religious motivation in play. Puritanism / American protestantism is also associated with the glorification of productivity that I describe above.

That fact provides a crucial context. It's easy to come away with the narrative that Prohibition failed so people just gave up. It also coincides with women achieving a lot more political and power, which gave them more options for getting away from abusive alcoholics. That played at least some part in the end of the drive to eliminate alcohol.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#196

Post by wool_gather »

cubix wrote: post #169
wool_gather wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cancer is just a bad illness. I too have had the experience of trying to interact with family members in the terminal stages. Neither of them were using marijuana, and they were often not coherent (when they were even awake). Not to diminish your grief, but your aunt might not have been any more available if she had been using other pain management methods. It's just a terrible, overwhelming thing to happen to the bo…

Unfortunately, there has been quite a few deaths in my family in the last decade, and most were on some form of pain management. They weren't always lucid, but none were as perpetually loopy as my aunt was in the last few months of her life. Someone in the forum accused me of being self-centered for simply mentioning this, but her incoherence did add to my, and particularly, my father's (her brother) grief.

> her incoherence did add to my, and particularly, my father's (her brother) grief.

I sympathize completely, and I'm sorry for your loss.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#197

Post by kortex »

andai wrote: post #193
kortex wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, if I were slowly dying over the course of weeks, and I were given 50/50 odds: "this wild ameliorate your mortality salience, or break your brain and make you crazy" I'd still take that. Heck, if you're worried about being crazy, you are probably less worried about death.

I have to say, I think you underestimate the suffering brought by insanity. Thankfully the odds are much better than that.

Actually I've struggled with bipolar disorder for two decades so I'm rather well acquainted with suffering caused by distorted perceptions of reality. Maybe that's why it's less daunting of a proposition to me :)

But yes you're completely right, the actual odds of an adverse psychologic reaction are much lower. My point was moreso that dealing with terminal illness can lead to its own kind of detachment from reality and all sorts of stress.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#198

Post by janoside »

rich_sasha wrote: post #6

I don't understand the controversy. We know full well the natural world is full of substances with significant impact on our bodies. Many such substances can even on average be harmful, but when used correctly, they are beneficial. Opioids come to mind first and foremost. It's not controversial to give e.g. serious accident victims a shot of morphine. Why are investigations into medicinal use of shrooms or marijuana…

Culture evolves slowly, often only changing dramatically across generations. Multiple generations in USA (which is a dominantly exported culture globally) have adopted the "drugs"-are-bad idea as a core belief (it's also worth noting that core beliefs tend not to be very nuanced or discerning, as in this case there's very little ability to discern between different types of "drug" substances).

Culture evolution slows further when large institutions (primarily "the state" here) adopt the same beliefs and make them concrete (by being codified in many laws in this case). This particular effect worsens when the core belief is that some thing is bad and can be outlawed/fought because you get droves of self-righteous politicians who want to make a name for themselves piling on against this Bad Thing.

Those processes need to be reversed and unwound to move past the erroneous core belief.

Bad ideas do die, but they almost always survive much longer than they "should" because of a litany of flaws in human nature/culture/information-flow.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#199

Post by jgwil2 »

Noos wrote: post #175
fsloth wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't necessarily say the same for mind altering drugs. All things are bad if not taken in moderation. My experience (personal and thus merely anecdotal) on mind altering drugs has been only positive. My SSRI medication was very welcome when I needed it, and I am very happy they 'altered my mind' and helped through some very dark times. If I was hit by depression again I would not mind trying a psilocybin based m…

The problem is we are talking about something that is orthogonal to the effect. An example is more like getting prescribed anti-depressants for back pain. I hear it helps with the pain, but you are getting personality alteration as a side effect with it. Like if im suffering pain, I don't want to get drug-induced quasi religious epiphanies from psychedelics. I Just want the pain managed. And what's really annoying ab…

It's not just about pain management - it's about accepting and making peace with dying. If there's a possibility that a drug can make this process easier for terminally ill patients, why would you object to its use by people who choose it?

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#200

Post by vidarh »

kortex wrote: post #100
vidarh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decriminalisation keeps many of the worst aspects of the war on drugs in place. Aspects that are damaging and immoral in that they cause far more harm than they prevent. Even drugs like heroin should be fully legalised. Subject to prescription, maybe. But the harm from a clean, consistent heroin supply is vastly lower than the harm caused by the manufacture and smuggling alone, and decriminalisation of possession doe…

As someone who's studied the topic quite heavily, here's my issue with no-holds-barred legalization (I consider "legal" to mean "can manufacture and distribute" in this regard, like tobacco). Drugs that couple very tightly to the VTA (brain's behavior-reward circuit) actually can lead to lasting changes after few or single exposures. This is amplified by rapid absorption routes - injection, insufflation and inhalatio…

The problem with this thinking is that these drugs are not medically gated today.

In fact, the "gating" of heroin through law enforcement is so poor that the difficulty and cost in scoring oxy once people face medical gating due to drug seeking behaviour is now one of the larger recruiting avenues to heroin use.

It's easier and cheaper for people to get heroin as a substitute than it is to continue to use a safer, cleaner supply of oxy.

If you want to medically gate these in a manner that does not increase harm it needs to be at the kind of level that e.g. paracetamol/acetaminophen is restricted in places like the UK (limits on quantity in a single purchase, but nothing that stops you popping to the next pharmacy over and buying more, or coming back the following day) or that e.g. some non-prescription drugs are sold (under the counter, pre-requisite information given out by a pharmacist and possibly some basic questions).

You can maybe push it to a non-aggressive push towards treatment, but if you start denying access you're right back to creating a black market you'll have no control over.

The exact threshold probably needs to differ per drug, but it the level of gating we're currently at even for legal prescription drugs like oxy is actively harmful.

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