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World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

theguardian.com

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Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#191

Post by cute_boi »

bayindirh wrote: post #125
JacobSuperslav wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hacker News, where technology > empathy

I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians. Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand". On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of re…

> plants are well, just alive wood

Plants don't feel as much animals do. They don't feel the torture animals do. They don't grief. They don't show responses that they don't want to be killed.

The fact is at the end we have to draw lines even though we don't want. For vegans its probably in bacteria. Vegans don't care about bacteria even though they are living.

Its the situation where vegans cannot go beyond right? Are you going to say vegan eat bacteria so eating meat should be justified? Nope.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#192

Post by names_are_hard »

chrisjarvis wrote: post #61
difosfor wrote: post #59

I suppose it's slightly more animal friendly. On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. Working towards one final giant culling of all unnaturally engineered animals and just continuing on with a small numb…

"be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "If not you, then who?" - Hillel, first- century Jewish scholar "would you like some cheese with that whine?" - my mom

Nitpicking the Hillel quote, the message is correct but to prevent misinformation spreading on the web I feel like correcting. Hillel is quoted in the Mishna[0] as saying,

"If I am not for me, who is for me? If I am for myself, what am I? If not now, when?"[1]

If Hillel said "if not you, then who?" I have not found a source, but I believe this is a common interpretation of his first sentence. Then again, maybe he was talking about self care and not taking responsibility. I don't know.

[0] Avoth 1.14

[1] Translation by me, the wording is terse and open to interpretation so I tried to be faithful to the text and not inject my own interpretation

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#193

Post by slothtrop »

dzolob wrote: post #141
slothtrop wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demonstrated sentience/consciousness is on a gradient, from nil/very-low, to high. And somewhere in between, a gray area. - mussels/mollusks (zero sentience) - insects (very low demonstrated consciousness) - fish (low demonstrated consciousness) - chickens/reptiles (disputed level) - dogs, dolphins, primates, etc (high) You can't equivocate chicken sentience with human sentience. What you can do is suggest they have…

There is a whole lot of citation needed on this reply, not to mention you’re talking about consciousness as something that can be clearly defined and measured. This is not physics. If you think it’s ok to breed beings that clearly look to avoid suffering and care for their offspring with the sole purpose of exploiting them, and that’s fine because life > death, there you have it. Just don’t try to push a pseudoscient…

> There is a whole lot of citation needed on this reply, not to mention you’re talking about consciousness as something that can be clearly defined and measured.

With sentience it's speculation, and that's part of the point I'm making. I responded to an ethical claim on the basis of sentience (no citation) by bringing to question what it means to be sentient when some beings e.g. insects demonstrate it.

Notwithstanding immeasurability, our perception of this level of sentience is relied on to determine our moral standing. We see this through actions we take for granted.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#194

Post by slothtrop »

cute_boi wrote: post #188
slothtrop wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

> "You're free to consume whatever you want." Most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. You're not free to consume whatever you want. It may be legal but not ethical.

You're taking this to mean far more than it obviously is meant to mean.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#195

Post by bitwize »

slothtrop wrote: post #60
difosfor wrote: post #59

I suppose it's slightly more animal friendly. On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. Working towards one final giant culling of all unnaturally engineered animals and just continuing on with a small numb…

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans.

Causing zero harm to animals is enough.

It's totally within reach, too. You just have to take responsibility and DO IT.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#196

Post by dec0dedab0de »

codyb wrote: post #175
ogre_codes wrote: post #173

As a hobby grower, I'd pay a premium for birds like this. We buy sex links and the idea that the dude chicks get slaughtered bothers be some. Though my SIL has expressed a willingness to slaughter the roosters so perhaps I'll just buy straight runs from now on and eat fresh chicken.

It was only recently I put two and two together and realized farmers kill all the male calfs which result from impregnating cows so they can start being milked. On the other hand... veal is delicious. But it does feel a bit bad. At this point I just aim for local farms for meat as much as possible, and organic and pasture raised where I can't. Even if they still kill the male borns, at least I know the animals are be…

what about steers?

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#197

Post by [deleted] »

bayindirh wrote: post #125
JacobSuperslav wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hacker News, where technology > empathy

I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians. Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand". On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of re…

[deleted]

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#198

Post by [deleted] »

kaycebasques wrote: post #160
bayindirh wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians. Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand". On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of re…

As a real vegan (not a meme about vegans that you saw from meat eaters) I can confidently tell you that "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food" is not my biggest line of defense. My biggest lines of defense are: * Dr. Kim Williams, former president of the American College of Cardiology, said "there are two kinds of cardiologists, vegans, and those who haven't read the data" * Ani…

[deleted]

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#199

Post by cute_boi »

nromiun wrote: post #159
bayindirh wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians. Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand". On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of re…

Maybe vegans do that but most vegetarians I know of don't eat meat for one simple reason: they are disgusted by it. Vegetarians don't really care about the ethics of it. In fact they are fine with animal based products, like milk.

You are in fact make a generalization and thats fair here. But I must so you are little incorrect here. You have clearly not seen how world lies, how society lies. So let me explain it to you.

First when you grow you drink mom's milk and you are under impression drinking milk is good for health which indeed is. So people start consuming milk everywhere.

And there are advertisements which shows happy cows, chocolates made from milk. Vegetarians are under impression that its ethical. And many farmers advertises as if their cows are happy they are grass fed etc. In some religion they even worship cows etc giving impression that cows are respected etc.

And the other thing you often hear is cows babies get enough milk and farmers only sell excess milk. So from religion, society people are brain washed so much they don't even see how animals are tortured, left on road after buffalo/cows stops giving milk.

I wish media would cover this subject more especially in India which is probably top 3 vegetarian country in the world.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#200

Post by 52-6F-62 »

howlin wrote: post #144
bayindirh wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians. Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand". On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of re…

There are several responses to the "plants have senses" rebuttal: If you care about the well being of plants, you should still prefer to eat plants rather than animals. The trophic level of animals in the food chain necessitates that they will eat more calories of plant matter than would provide calories of food upon being eaten. Secondly, you should look at the sorts of plants being consumed and where they fall in t…

The "plants have senses rebuttal" as you put it is only an illustration that exposes the absurdity of the whole attachment of ethics to consumption of any form in and of itself.

The only logical endpoint is that humans should just off themselves so we don't participate past one cycle of reabsorption into the Earth's environment.

One way or another, everything is going to die and be consumed by another living organism.

That's why it's absurd. You can arbitrarily pick your own resolution, but it's only arbitrary until you exit the cycle completely.

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