Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#191

Post by m0zg » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

It's the algorithmic bubbles. They amplify biases and stupidity of any given group of people, and make biases and stupidity seem like the "norm" within the bubble, so not only it is imperceptible, it's also socially damaging to speak up against it with those still in the bubble. So instead of tamping down stupidity by exposing you to negative feedback (usually stupidity of the opposite polarity), you're only getting in-group positive feedback, so the system becomes unstable (EE's here will understand what I'm talking about).

We have to deal with this somehow, because this is not going to end well.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#192

Post by segfaultbuserr » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #110

seanalltogether wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not be surprised to learn that flat earth theories started as satire online, but it slowly turned into a theory for people who didn't know any better. I would also not be surprised to learn that QANON simply started out as trolling and morphed into the weird following it now has.

In the case of q-anon, that is exactly what happened. 4chan trolls were throwing spaghetti at the wall, seeing what would stick. Q-anon happened to stick, and off the rails it went. There's been a bunch of people who have had "control" over Q in the past few years. The current Q, Jim Watkins, is thankfully the laziest and most boring of them, and hopefully the entire thing fades away after the election.

> 4chan trolls were throwing spaghetti at the wall, seeing what would stick. Q-anon happened to stick, and off the rails it went.

It's just like how 100% of the memes are created on 4chan, the mechanism is the same, applicable from cat pictures to political propaganda. Since 2016 or so, there has been much talk about "weaponized memes" on 4chan that was mostly a meme by itself initally (I was a witness there in 2016), but based on the situation by now it's unfortunately surely a real thing, and even MIT Technology Review has an article [0]. It feels surreal. What an interesting time to be alive! A bunch of random grassroot web dwellers can create something out of nothing by natural selection and genetic exchanges, and by attracting conspiracy zealots in this process, it will eventually become big enough to make an impact on national politics.

20 years ago, it was a Sci-Fi plot. Although Usenet already foreshadowed many social aspects of online communities (I could find conspiracy materials even from the early ARPA archives), but nowhere influential.

One comment mentioned the changed perception of free speech before and after the 2010s, and this is an important contributing factor. Perhaps the society will learn to better adapt the new meme order in another decade.

[0] https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/10/24/132228/political...

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#193

Post by qsort » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #184

qsort wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We view the claim as absurd today only because we have the benefit of millennia of collection. This premise is just historically false. Ancient civilizations knew full well the earth was not flat. More people in the history of mankind have known the earth is round than how to multiply.

> Ancient civilizations knew full well the earth was not flat. Some did. Not all of them. The first one I'm aware of is the Greeks. Do you know of any earlier ones? Also, the fact that particular intellectuals knew the Earth was round in a society does not necessarily mean it was common knowledge in that society, much less that it was such common knowledge that the average person would think it absurd to question it…

(edit to answer the edit)

There's evidence in some Sanskrit texts that early Indian civilizations did, but they are probably contemporary to the Greeks.

But again, even superficial observations are sufficient. You don't really have to "trust" anybody or research anything. If anything, it's the belief in flat earth that requires extremely convoluted and unintuitive rationalizations.

Again, I understand this stuff is frustrating, because unwillingness to change one's mind in front of overwhelming contrary evidence is one of the worst possible behaviors.

They might believe the claim in the sense they'd pass a lie detector test, but I doubt it's because they find the argument genuinely convincing.

> early christians

This isn't true, either. Some early Christians might have stuck to a literal interpretation of the sacred texts, but the Church has strongly opposed that belief since the very beginning. I don't have any particular axe to grind, but this is really just a myth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#194

Post by Raphmedia » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:30 PM UTC

contravariant wrote: post #109

Raphmedia wrote: post #56

I would be curious about what is the author's definition of the word "stupidity"? "Lack of judgment"? "Lack of knowledge"? "Unintelligent"? "Mental slowness in speech or action"? Perhaps, "Lack of education"? In a lot of the points, the author uses "smart" as the opposite of "stupid". Smart is also a vague word that comes up with multiple definitions such as "having or showing a high degree of mental ability", "styli…

It's disappointing how many examples in this thread are about lack of knowledge (or even just disagreeable beliefs). If intelligence is taken to be about manipulating the world around you then this is to some extent connected to the ability to obtain and verify knowledge but the ability to act upon that knowledge is far more important. True stupidity is almost by definition self-defeating. While I will admit that som…

The author's direct words: "The way we educate children went seriously sideways a while back, and so, yeah, stupid happened."

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#195

Post by sebmellen » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #105

grenoire wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is too much information around for the average person to filter and process and digest. All three are important parts of living in a society and it looks to me like even with e.g. economic issues alone, it's just very hard for (to be fair) anybody to keep up. In turn, people reach out to conspiracy theories to simplify the world around them with obvious answers and explanations. My theory, sort of.

I think this theory is missing a component: the erosion of respect for experts. It at least seems like pre-internet, when people didn't understand the world around them they would default to trusting what scientists/doctors/researchers told them was true. But today, we've gone so far down the disinformation "fake news" rabbit hole that a large portion of the general public, at least in America, just straight up doesn…

This is not just because of disinformation though. Now, it's easier than ever to second-guess your doctor and any other expert (and I know because I've done this, and even been right on occasion).

For example, every time someone worries about their health, they can sort through all possible diagnoses online, and convince themselves they have a certain sickness just because the symptoms match. A doctor will use Bayesian reasoning and conclude the problem is really a very common infection or something, but when the untrained mind is overwhelmed with information, Occam's Razor doesn't hold.

The same goes for everything else. Information is dangerous for those who don't know how to reason about it carefully and properly, which is most of us, in most fields.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#196

Post by azhu » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #33

Counterintuitively, people love reading about and engaging in what they consider "stupidity". Internet companies capitalize on this by bringing an optimized stream of stupidity for your viewing pleasure. Take a look at the front page of Reddit (logged out, default subs): Half of the content highlights stupidity of others: /r/IdiotsInCars shows the worst drivers from around the world, /r/insanepeoplefacebook shows the…

> If 90% of your insight into social interactions comes from clickbait social media sites selecting the most egregious stories and videos from around the world, of course you're going to think "stupidity is expanding"

Agreed. Isn't this the majority of people though? And if this is in fact the majority of people, then doesn't it mean that stupidity is in fact expanding?

I don't think any of us are going to hit upon the end-all-be-all decisive proof either way, but I think there's value in considering how everyone perceiving it getting larger may be the definition of it getting larger.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#197

Post by biolurker1 » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

Siira wrote: post #167

TallGuyShort wrote: post #32

I've engaged a few flat earthers to actually listen to their arguments and show them my own evidence that it's real (locating amateur radio satellites using data shared by people around the globe and demonstrating the doppler effect on them). The response strikes me as being indicative of mental illness. And I don't mean that as an insult - I mean that when confronted with that they're clearly irrational. And somethi…

The problem is actually economical IMO; Fools don’t have a skin in the game, and don’t lose anything from having false beliefs. They would be perfectly capable of discerning the nonflatness of Earth if their lives depended on it.

My favorite way to end an argument is usually prompting a bet...

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#198

Post by 02020202 » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:45 PM UTC

"Is Stupidity Expanding?" - yes, yes it is. And on an exponential scale. Something's in the water.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#199

Post by josalhor » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #58

grenoire wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is too much information around for the average person to filter and process and digest. All three are important parts of living in a society and it looks to me like even with e.g. economic issues alone, it's just very hard for (to be fair) anybody to keep up. In turn, people reach out to conspiracy theories to simplify the world around them with obvious answers and explanations. My theory, sort of.

Yeah that crossed my mind as well. People who have so little understanding of the mechanics behind it all that they think it's impossible we've put anything in Earth orbit - how could ANYONE understand that? In one case though I had someone say that I wasn't hitting satellites, I was hitting a solar-powered high altitude plane. When I pointed out that it would have to be going at 23 times the speed of sound at sea le…

This thread also summarizes my experience pretty well.

To take this even further: I encounter in my day to day many instances of people making claims that are easily refuted with a quick online search. I have realized that correcting people over their lack of scientific knowledge is perceived as nitpicking and inappropriate. We got our incentives backwards. If we cannot speak up over misinformation to our peers, then they will spread faster than the truth.

Sadly, I've had to accept that in order to be perceived as a much stronger source of truth, I have to correct people less.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#200

Post by sudosteph » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

prox wrote: post #36

scotty79 wrote: post #11

Maybe stupidity is just entertaining and gets promoted because of that? As I watch another flat earth debunking video suggested by youtube to have a laugh I'm wondering ... Am I the part of the problem? How popular stupidity would be without people pointing fingers at stupidity and laughing?

Entertainment polarization I call it. It taps into the inborn urge to point your finger at something and feel something (superiority, laugh at the dumbness, curiosity) I feel it is quite insidious and not many have a defense against it. The way outlier theories and polarized content can now reach a crowd that was hitherto undreamed of. And people get swept up in it. We must learn from this, but we as technologists sh…

You've done an excellent job at identifying the problem, but I am extremely doubtful that this could be improved by focusing on algorithms and improving people's ability to discern information. When somebody has adopted a irrational position on something, it's not always possible to reason them out of it - especially when reason wasn't the primary factor in adopting that position in the first place. People often believe in things because they have emotional ties to it, or because they think it's just part of their self identify.

The real question is how to do we stop everyone else from piling on top of these people and turning them into high visibility punching bags (which in turn propagates the bad information further and actually makes some folks more sympathetic to the people who now appear to be bullying victims). And that's not a question of intelligence, but one of morals and ethics.