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Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

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191–200 of 619 posts

Re: Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

#191
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far the largest solar plant in the world is about 1500MW in China. That’s still only a fraction of the largest nuclear facilities in the world. And solar plants only work during the day, to a first approximation (yes, there are storage approaches that sort of work, in some parts of the world.) Overall, most renewables don’t really come all that close to nuclear as far as generation capacity goes...

> So far the largest solar plant in the world is about 1500MW in China. That’s still only a fraction of the largest nuclear facilities in the world. Why is this a problem? If solar plants can be cheap without being big, that's a feature, not a bug.

A 1.5GW solar plant is going to cover a massive amount of land. For comparison sake, the decommissioned San Onofre Nuclear Plant had roughly 2.7 GW of generation capacity, and the official website estimates it would take roughly 18 square miles of solar panels to replace that capacity.

https://www.songscommunity.com/about/virtual-tour

Re: Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

#192
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just part of the story, annual nuclear refueling is also surprisingly expensive. The raw material is cheap, but you need to refine it to reactor grade, creating fuel rods, and only use ~6% of it before replacing the rods. So on net it ends up being quite costly before considering long term storage. You also need to shutdown the reactor for refueling. Other costs like maintenance starts to really add up over ti…

Also the nuclear waste problem. Nuclear reprocessing looks nice on paper, but the technical implementation is problematic, it's chemistry but in a radioactive environment. If something catches on fire there's problems.

What nuclear waste problem?

"Nuclear waste generally is over 90% uranium. Thus, the spent fuel (waste) still contains 90% usable fuel! It can be chemically processed and placed in other reactors to close the fuel cycle. A closed fuel cycle means much less nuclear waste and much more energy extracted from the raw ore. Additionally, this process allows you to convert your waste into chemical forms that are totally immobilized. France currently recycles their spent fuel. They put the remaining good nuclear fuel back in their reactors in the form of MOX fuel and immobilize the remaining waste in vitrified borosilicate glass.

The US had a recycling program featuring the use of advanced fast reactors (which have not been deployed on any major scale yet) that was shut down because it created Plutonium, which could be used to make a nuclear weapon. Were some plutonium diverted in the recycling process, a non-nuclear entity could be one step close to building a bomb. However, under programs such as the (now stalled) GNEP [wikipedia], where only countries who already have nuclear weapons recycle, proliferation-free waste recycling can exist. Since the many of the largest energy users are already nuclear weapons states, a massive expansion of nuclear could be done there with no additional proliferation concerns whatsoever.

If all the electricity use of the USA was distributed evenly among its population, and all of it came from nuclear power, then the amount of nuclear waste each person would generate per year would be 39.5 grams. That’s the weight of seven U. S. quarters of waste, per year! A detailed description of this result can be found here. If we got all our electricity from coal and natural gas, expect to have over 10,000 kilograms of CO2/yr attributed to each person, not to mention other poisonous emissions directly to the biosphere (based on EIA emissions data).

If you want raw numbers: in 2018, there were just over 80,000 metric tonnes of high-level waste in the USA. Between 1971 and 2018, nuclear reactors in the USA generated 3000 GW-years of electricity to make this waste.

For comparison, in 2007 alone the US burned 948,000,000 metric tonnes of coal. This means that coal plants made 32 times more waste every single day than the US nuclear fleet has made in the past 45 years! Granted, coal made a higher fraction of the country’s electricity, but the numbers are still crazy impressive for nuclear."

Source: https://whatisnuclear.com/waste.html

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Interesting: "2018 Nobel Prize for Physics-winner Gérard Mourou has proposed using Chirped pulse amplification to generate high-energy and low-duration laser pulses to transmute highly radioactive material (contained in a target) to significantly reduce its half-life, from thousands of years to only a few minutes."

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Aaaand then I have not yet mentioned fusion reactors... Just check it out here: https://www.iter.org/sci/Fusion

Re: Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

#193
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vogtle, Summer, Flamanville 3, and Olkiluoto 3 weren't delayed by NIMBY lawsuits. They were delayed by construction screw ups. Nuclear power plants are complex, and if they are required to be constructed to high standards, delays and overruns are almost inevitable. A PV field, on the other hand, is much simpler, with much more inherent redundancy, and can tolerate construction mistakes without either safety implicati…

Three of the plants you mentioned were 40+ years ago, right? Seems a bit outdated to point to in 2020.

None of the plants I mentioned were 40+ years ago. They are all contemporary. Vogtle is still under construction, Summer was cancelled a couple of years ago ($9B down the drain), Flamanville 3 is still under construction, and the last is near completion. You may be confused with earlier reactors at some of those sites.

Re: Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

#194
post #53

Do we stress about the risks nuclear power far out of proportion to how safe it is? Yes. Even accounting for the worst accidents, it kills a very low number of people per TWh. Do we ignore the risks of fossil fuels far out of proportion to how dangerous they are? Also yes. They kill an absurdly high number of people per TWh; by most estimates coal is several hundred times more dangerous than nuclear. Does that mean n…

solar/wind + batteries is now cheaper than coal and nuclear. And it can be brought online faster with virtually no safety issues. Nuclear had it's day and it's over. At this point subsidizing it is just creating a mess so that we can give money to GE et al for providing something that--thanks to technology--has no value. If you really want to, just give GE the money directly so that we won't have to bother decommissi…

Do you have evidence that batteries are cheaper than say nuclear? I only heard of the opposite, batteries are prohibitively expensive.

Re: Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

#195
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So far the largest solar plant in the world is about 1500MW in China. That’s still only a fraction of the largest nuclear facilities in the world. Why is this a problem? If solar plants can be cheap without being big, that's a feature, not a bug.

A 1.5GW solar plant is going to cover a massive amount of land. For comparison sake, the decommissioned San Onofre Nuclear Plant had roughly 2.7 GW of generation capacity, and the official website estimates it would take roughly 18 square miles of solar panels to replace that capacity. https://www.songscommunity.com/about/virtual-tour

There is plenty of land. The notion that land constraints seriously limit solar is an oft-repeated canard. You can see this by either comparing the land needed to the land available, or by comparing the cost of land to the cost of the equipment that is put on the land.

Nuclear's land use typically ignores the land used by the distribution network for its power. If you add that in, the land ratio of solar vs. nuclear is much smaller.

Re: Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

#196
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not be surprised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY446h4pZdc

do you have a title so I can check it through DDG? I refuse to click the consent pop-ip on YT... EDIT: watched. An aeroplane is not a train.

1) A train is a nastier impactor than a plane, which is mostly air, soft-ish metal and plastic.

2) What's your point? You can kill way more people by flying an airplane into a building than any nuclear facility.

Re: Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact this is one of the biggest reasons why nuclear is failing. Building even just a single power plant is a project that is so large no single company can do it.

Rosatom built many power plants.

It is government owned.

Re: Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does it say the evacuated areas are off limit for hundreds of years ?

After doing a bit of searching around, it looks like 20-40 years: https://www.brainscape.com/blog/2015/06/how-long-take-to-rec... . So one of my assumptions was incorrect - but only about Fukushima. Chernobyl is estimated at 20,000 years. So it depends on the nature of the contaminaation.

I have no doubt that all advocates for nuclear would agree Chernobyl is not acceptable, and that Chernobyl can't happen in more modern reactor designs.

If Fukushima is the worst case (and newer designs may even avoid/prevent Fukushima style event entirely), I'd say the cost is acceptable. ~300 square km area that's affected is relatively small, given the grand scheme of things - it would be certainly much, much less impact than coal mining has on land use and pollution (by mining itself, not counting the effect of burning coal).

So if I have a magic wand, I'd happily remove all coal mining and power plants, and replace them all with nuclear power plants (though not necessarily put them on the same location), and I think humanity will be better off.

In the really long term, if/when there's enough energy storage solutions, I think we may not need much of nuclear power plants anymore. But I think we can not wait for that to be viable as the climate disaster is already on its way.

Re: Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 1.5GW solar plant is going to cover a massive amount of land. For comparison sake, the decommissioned San Onofre Nuclear Plant had roughly 2.7 GW of generation capacity, and the official website estimates it would take roughly 18 square miles of solar panels to replace that capacity. https://www.songscommunity.com/about/virtual-tour

There is plenty of land. The notion that land constraints seriously limit solar is an oft-repeated canard. You can see this by either comparing the land needed to the land available, or by comparing the cost of land to the cost of the equipment that is put on the land. Nuclear's land use typically ignores the land used by the distribution network for its power. If you add that in, the land ratio of solar vs. nuclear…

> There is plenty of land. The notion that land constraints seriously limit solar is an oft-repeated canard.

I mean, I guess that's technically true, but not all land is made the same - solar is obviously going to be more productive in California, Arizona and Florida than it will be in Washington or Maine. I'm also not arguing that we can't do it because of land — it's poor land use, and works counter to the goal of sequestering carbon out of the atmosphere.

How many ecosystems should be destroy by covering it in panels, when we could install a couple dozen mass manufactured nuclear plants and call it a day?

> Nuclear's land use typically ignores the land used by the distribution network for its power.

How do you figure? You are going to have transmission from the desert to cities, and you will need last mile delivery either way. When you do the math on the number of 18 square mile solar plants you would need for the equivalent number of small-footprint nuclear plants, it's really hard for me to see how this is true.

Re: Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?

#200
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the cost of a MWh of nuclear comes from the cost of capital (interests). [1] Put differently, if capital is backed by the state, that the $/MWh could be a _lot_ less than it is. 1. https://imgur.com/a/4mAlUbO

This also seems to be a problem because the US seems to have gotten much worse at building fixed structures (bridges, buildints &c.) over the last 100 year. Some of that cost is probably due to better workplace safety, but some of that cost has come in the past 40 years, and I don't feel like OSHA has tightened the screws that much in the psat 40 years.

Not only the US. The Flamanville EPR has suffered increased costs because the welders that actually learned how to do nuclear-level welds had retired by the time someone decided to build a new nuclear reactor after Chernobyl. Additionally, the foundries that build a key part of the nuclear core (I belive it’s called a chaudron in French, but it’s basically a big metal boiler) were not as good as they were, because they had to actually remake it twice.

It is horrifying but we lost a technological capacity.

Here’s a good source in French on that subject: https://www.economie.gouv.fr/rapport-epr-flamanville#

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