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How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#191

Post by zenexer »

ahartmetz wrote: post #171
aimor wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I remember as well. I remember my mother using her own rope net grocery bags as an alternative to the paper ones. I remember in school we switched from single-portion paper milk cartons to square bags of milk that you punctured with a plastic straw. This was sold to us along with a muppet skit explaining how to use the milk bags (the muppets rated it "one thumb up and one thumb down, to cover the straw h…

Nothing is stopping you from reusing the plastic bags. My plastic bag accumulation rate is low because I always have one or two - they are very small when folded - in my backpack.

I do the same. Plastic bags are quite convenient, are often easier to clean than fancy reusable bags, can be given away without a second thought, and fit nicely in a backpack when folded. Whenever I get a new one, I fold it up and put it in a box in my coat closet. Going shopping? Grab a few, stick them in my car or backpack.

They last practically forever—certainly longer than the cheap reusable bags that have a tendency to tear and stain.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#192

Post by pbhjpbhj »

jessaustin wrote: post #39
wyldfire wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still remember that one of the textbooks even started an answer with "natürlich trenne ich Müll" ('well, of course I sort my trash...'). Here in the US many communities use "single-stream" recycling (and we applaud ourselves for the effort too). But I wonder how many communities really deliver those contents back to production, especially since China stopped importing it.

At this point, "wondering" about this is willful ignorance. Municipal recycling programs in USA don't recycle much of anything. Valuable materials such as some metals don't make it into the blue bins; those are sold at actual recycling depots. Whatever is in the blue bins, is not recyclable in current economic conditions.

>Whatever is in the blue bins, is not recyclable in current economic conditions. //

Which is why you have local taxes, to cover such activities.

Personally I think we need to reverse the supply chain and require all shops to take back any packaging sold.

I'd love to see standardised reusable plastic cartons in supermarkets. And a heavy tax on transportation of mixed water - drink syrup is extremely cheap, we mix it with heavy water, wrap it in plastic and fill lorries with it; that's a massive waste. Anything with lots of water in should be mixed if at all possible at the delivery end. Baby steps, I know.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#193

Post by Moto7451 »

4ad wrote: post #175
irrational wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what happens to the 40 odd plastic bags I've accumulated? We always used them as garbage can liners. Now that stores no longer have plastic bags we have to buy plastic bags. So instead of reusing the plastic bags we brought our groceries home in, we are buying brand new plastic bags instead. The same number of plastic bags are entering the landfill. The only difference is that now we have to pay for them.

I don't know where you live and how garbage disposal works where you live, but in general I would urge people not to do this. Proper garbage can bags are important because they don't spill out easily. This makes the job of the garbage disposal people much easier. Imagine having someone overworked and underpaid, working on autopilot and at fast pace, and suddenly your trash spills out. You will ruin that person's day.

At least in Los Angeles there are mechanized arms to pick up residential bins. I now live on the East Coast and that is no longer the case and definitely can’t use shopping bags as liners without consolidating them into a standard 13 gallon bag.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#194

Post by JshWright »

4ad wrote: post #175
irrational wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what happens to the 40 odd plastic bags I've accumulated? We always used them as garbage can liners. Now that stores no longer have plastic bags we have to buy plastic bags. So instead of reusing the plastic bags we brought our groceries home in, we are buying brand new plastic bags instead. The same number of plastic bags are entering the landfill. The only difference is that now we have to pay for them.

I don't know where you live and how garbage disposal works where you live, but in general I would urge people not to do this. Proper garbage can bags are important because they don't spill out easily. This makes the job of the garbage disposal people much easier. Imagine having someone overworked and underpaid, working on autopilot and at fast pace, and suddenly your trash spills out. You will ruin that person's day.

Generally they're used for smaller trash containers like you might find in a bathroom. We use them like this and when they're full they get tied closed (the handles make this easy) and placed in the larger main trash bag in the kitchen.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#195

Post by jimmySixDOF »

yourapostasy wrote: post #169
daxfohl wrote: post #143

Though I'm curious if the "reusable" trend is more of the same. Are single-use bags and straws really that bad for the environment, and do reusables get reused enough times to make a difference, or is a reusable straw just another thing to make money on? (Not that I imagine reusable straws is a lucrative enough industry to be worthy of dedicated political lobbying teams, but who knows).

It depends upon the Cradle to Cradle context of how the reusable term is used. A 316 grade stainless steel or aluminum straw that is appropriately marked for automated material identification (a very big gap in our current industrial culture) is easy to send back through a foundry to re-melt and reuse when broken beyond repair (likely by accident, as such a straw could conceivably last centuries when well taken care…

+1 to that 100%

We are right now in the process of borrowing money from future generations and so reinvesting it (for them) into building a connection between the production/sales and recovery/reuse cycles so we have a single business value chain is a much better long-term strategic return for everyone than whatever empty calorie derivative product wall st bets it all on these days at the moment. It ought to be illegal to sell me any product that you are not also required to take back when it's finished. Unilever & Walmart Et al. should own the garbage trucks, the landfills, and the responsibility to dispose of anything they sell me - and I bet they suddenly find creative ways to reduce, reuse, and recycle things we never thought to be possible.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#196

Post by zenexer »

4ad wrote: post #175
irrational wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what happens to the 40 odd plastic bags I've accumulated? We always used them as garbage can liners. Now that stores no longer have plastic bags we have to buy plastic bags. So instead of reusing the plastic bags we brought our groceries home in, we are buying brand new plastic bags instead. The same number of plastic bags are entering the landfill. The only difference is that now we have to pay for them.

I don't know where you live and how garbage disposal works where you live, but in general I would urge people not to do this. Proper garbage can bags are important because they don't spill out easily. This makes the job of the garbage disposal people much easier. Imagine having someone overworked and underpaid, working on autopilot and at fast pace, and suddenly your trash spills out. You will ruin that person's day.

Where I live, there’s no manual handling of individual bags by waste management employees. You throw your trash bags directly into a large compactor; from there, it’s handled in bulk.

Where I lived previously, residents brought bags to a warehouse-like building maintained by the town. You dropped your trash through openings in the side of the building that resembled windows. Town employees used tractors equipped with giant claws to scoop up the trash and load it into dumpsters, which were then brought to landfills.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#197

Post by yodsanklai »

ced wrote: post #38
yodsanklai wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was amazing what a cultural force this habit seems to have for many Germans. I'm not asking maliciously, but I wonder how Germans reconcile their seemingly environmental awareness with their high CO2 emissions and big cars culture.

Compared to other developed countries they are not the worst. Australia: 16.8 tons/capita/year Canada/US: 16.1 Germany: 9.1 China: 8.0 France: 5.0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

https://www.statista.com/chart/19937/europes-biggest-greenho...

Compared to other European countries, they are significantly worst.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#198

Post by Alex3917 »

liability wrote: post #92
Alex3917 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For decades the message was to recycle for the environment. The message is and has been "reduce, reuse, recycle." Recycling has been sold from the very beginning as being the option of last resort.

The mantra should have included "... in that order!"

The logo on every recycling bin is literally arrows that explain the order.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#199

Post by jokethrowaway »

yostrovs wrote: post #179
ajnin wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, it's mostly replanting what has been destroyed previously, and with only a few fast growth species who don't make very useful wood for other purposes, while more varied forests are being destroyed to make room. It's pretty hard to "trick" capitalism into serving other interests than its own.

And yet, capitalist societies have stricter environmental regulations and the people living in capitalist societies tend to be more concerned about the environment. Look up the Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea for their environmental records and compare those to the US or Western Europe. Here's the US, page 7 please: https://www.fia.fs.fed.us/library/brochures/docs/2012/Forest...

It's probably a mix of being overall rich enough that we can think about other problems (like the environment) and because spending money and consuming is actually a choice. A market driven by consumers choice will create a market for greener products. The more power the government has the less they care about anyone else but the elite. And they for sure won't care about the terrible conditions of the environment in paesants-ville.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#200

Post by pfdietz »

nemo44x wrote: post #184
bit_logic wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking about this more, wasn't there a time, maybe late 90s early 2000s when the message was that plastic is more environmental than paper? Something like at the supermarket checkout you should pick plastic over paper bags to save rain forest trees? Is my memory wrong or was this a widespread message at the time?

Yeah I remember that too. I worked in a grocery store in the 90’s and we were told to default to plastic for the simple reason that it was less expensive. Managers hated nothing more than the customer who requested “paper, double bagged”. I think our cost was about 3 cents per paper bag if I recall the training video correctly. Because of generally low margins it really eats into profits.

In New York, plastic grocery bags have been outlawed. You can get paper bags, but the stores charge 5 cents per. Reusable bags are now the standard, but that requires some longer term use to pay off.
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